Alignment tips..

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tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

So I finally brought my car home from the shop which means I can work on it a bit more without having to drive 45 minutes each way. Downside is I don't have the extremely valuable support and help from the other local vee guys. My garage was also broken into a couple days ago so most of my tools are gone, but I think I have most of what I need to align the car. Hopefully I'll learn what else I need from this thread :)

One of the things I want to do is align the car properly. I know how to check and adjust toe and camber, but that's about it. Bob Posner once explained me how he checks that the car is still square and that the steering is sort of centered, etc but that was on my first ever weekend with the car and unfortunately, I don't think I can remember most of what he told me that day :(

Any tips?
Dietmar
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by Dietmar »

check your e-mail

Dietmar
http://www.quixoteracing.com
billinstuart
Posts: 201
Joined: July 17th, 2006, 8:53 pm

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by billinstuart »

First, ignore wheelbase. What you want is all 4 wheels headed in the same direction and PARALLEL with the centerline of the car.

Personally, I usedta be able to sight down the inside of the rear wheels and see something on the front beam..maybe the shock bolt head. If you don't see the SAME relative spot on both sides, something is crooked. The FF guys used to lay a jack handle along the tire and uprights and do the same thing.

Toe is ALWAYS set with a tape measure. Most accurate is a line scribed on the surface of the tire.

Minimize "bump steer"!!
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

Thanks guys :) got a couple more things to add to the to-do list!
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

A quick question.. I'm guessing that a big percentage of FV drivers aren't spending thousands on setup platforms and scales, etc.. I moved my car from a nice new-ish shop with flat-ish floors, to my 40 year old garage with a big crack right down the middle! Any cheap clever ways of making sure all the camber measurements are about right? I'm not terribly worried since to be honest.. Everything moves out of whack as soon as I turn the wheel, but I want to get it in the ball park anyway.

Here's a thought.. I have one of those digital angle finder thingies. If I "zero" it on the floor next to each tire before measuring that tire, will that be fairly accurate? Since the crack goes right down the middle (so the left side is angled to the left, right side is angled to the right..) Will I end up with more negative camber than what I measure in my poor garage? Not that more negative camber would somehow be a bad thing :lol:
Hal
Posts: 107
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:36 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by Hal »

I suppose you can build up, shim up floor so it is level from side to side, but you are going to have to role the car back and forth while you are making measurements and adjustments to get the right set so this would take a lot of work and still might not be reliable. But in the words of Dietmar everytime he squares both my cars..."get a better floor!"

Hal
D-13 88
Citation 88
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by jpetillo »

I have the same floor - cracked right down the middle under where the Vee lives! You can set camber on such a floor, just don't measure camber with respect to the floor. I square the beam to the car as best I can and then measure the camber with respect to the beam with a similar digital angle finder. If I remeasure on the other side of the garage where the floor's flat & not cracked, I get the same camber measurements. Don't get me wrong, I feel better setting camber on the flat side of the garage, but a flat floor is not necessary for setting front camber. As Hal says, make sure you roll the car back and forth - flat floor or not. John
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

ah yes, good call on measuring against the beam!

If I had nothing else to do, I'm sure I could come up with some very simple platforms that I could level up, but I don't think I'll get around to that this winter..
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by brian »

Air all four tires to a specific pressure. I use 30 psi so the tires will roll easier. Place a straight edge on the top of the two front or rear tires, I use a piece of steel square tubing, then put a bubble level on the tubing to determine if the tires are level. If they are not, you will need to shim the low side to place the bubble dead center. Mark the floor and the shim to make sure you can return them to the same spot. With a shim on the floor, you can roll the car back and forth and still end up level. Being level front to back is not an issue. Being level in the rear for a zero roll car is not really an issue either. Toe measurements are not as dependent on being level either.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by problemchild »

After the first time I align a car, it never sees a "so-called" level surface again. That initial setting becomes my baseline. I take linear dimensions of all adjustable components and any measurements at set droop settings. All future alignments are done on chassis stands with droop limiters at the baseline settings. My baseline settings evolve but are all relative. I can quickly align the car or return a corner to desired spec within minutes. No more simulated "jounce and roll" camber settings or looking for flat surfaces. An extra hour of note-keeping to start ..... and savings of hrs and hrs later .... but most importantly, totally accurate and repeatable alignments ... which I consider impossible with "jounce and roll" techniques (very temperature sensitive).
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Matt King
Posts: 304
Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by Matt King »

On the front, toe is probably 90 percent of the game with a Vee. Caster is determined by beam placement and camber is limited to whatever you can get with offset bushings and neither are very easily adjustable. In the rear, as mentioned, the zero roll makes it easy to set static camber equal side to side by keeping the lengths of the pushrods close to equal. Setting droop doesn't require a level surface either if you jack the car up, set one side to Zero and measure the other.
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

The one thing (well.. figure of speech there, I have trouble with just about everything haha..) I have trouble with in my front end is making sure it's not binding. It was sticking quite a bit (I would jump on the front end and it wouldn't rebound, or I'd lift it up by hand and it would stay there) and I "solved" it by loosening the link pins ( or is that king pins?? argh. I need a VW book) a little bit. I'm sure I could go out and spend money on those thin bearings that were part of a big discussion here a couple months ago, but you know.. I shouldn't have to if I knew what the hell I was doing. I understand that camber depends on the bushings and there's very limited room for adjustment before things start binding. But is there a way of figuring out the perfect number without lots of trial and error? Or should 1.5 to 2 degrees just pretty much work?
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by cendiv37 »

I know some people do, but I've never tried to "adjust" front camber with the link pin shims (those are the link pins -> horizontal, 2 per side vs king pins -> vertical, 1 per side). My preference has always been to have everything as tight as possible with no binding. I would argue that any extra camber you get by adjusting with the shims is immediately lost as soon as the suspension loads up because of the slop you had to build into the bushings to allow the pins to move enough to adjust the camber away from what it naturally wants to be. As a result, I've never gotten the full 1.5 degrees of negative camber my offset bushings are supposed to provide. I feel good if I get both sides at or near 1 degree when measured on a flat surface.

I also much prefer properly machining the dogbones (link pin carriers) to make sure the shim surfaces are perpendicular to the bushing bore. I would say that if you don't get at least 1/2 to 2/3 of that surface flat and perp. to the bore, you are asking for trouble (binding and difficulty in adjusting the shims).

To adjust the shims to minimize binding, start with just the inner shims and the steering knuckle. If you have nice flat shim surfaces, you can just press the dogbone against each face of the two trailing arms, adding shims top or bottom until there is the least amount of movement of the dogbone at the opposite trailing arm when you hold the one end (of the dogbone) hard against the face of the other trailing arm. Work with clean, dry shims and no grease.

tip: Start with two shims at the upper trailing arm. I think 2 is the minimum that should be used. Add shims to the bottom until there is the least amount of "rocking".

This will get you very close to the correct "difference" in shim count from top to bottom. The total number of shims is not important, only the difference in count (upper vs. lower) of the shims on the inside matters. Note: once you have the correct difference, you will have to add shims as necessary to the outside of the dogbones (especially at the top link pin) to take up the length of the link pins so the pinch bolts don't bottom in the spiral grooves of the link pins before they actually pull the link pin tight.

Only after getting this baseline adjustment do I move on to actually putting the link pins in and assembling the entire steering knuckle to the trailing arms. Again, I would do this with everything dry and play with the shims as necessary to get the link pins to be as tight as possible with no binding. One way to test for this is to see how far one link pin needs to be loosened before it is free to move in and out while the other link pin is "snug" (just binding, taking up all play). When things are "good" each link pin should loosen up almost immediately when the other is tight. If it feels "springy", you are having to bend the dogbone to tighten up one link pin when the other is tight. The shimming isn't right.

Now, take it all apart lightly grease everything, reassemble it and grease the zerks.

Do your final adjustments with the car on the ground and the shocks removed. Start with all the link pins slightly loose. Tighten one until you just feel the suspension starting to bind. Back it off until the suspension moves freely. Lock it with the pinch bolt. Move on to the next one on the same side. If it feels springy, the shimming isn't right. Springy or not, adjust it as tight as possible without binding. If you're not happy with how the adjustment goes on one side, try again tightening the opposite end of the dogbone first. Once you are happy, do the other side. In the end, you must allow the suspension to work so err on the side of looser rather than tighter.

If one insists on adjusting the camber with the shims (away from what is machined into the bushings and the way all the various parts line up naturally) then one must allow some slop in the link pin bushings themselves. You will also need to adjust the link pins somewhat loose so the shimmed faces don't bind. There is no other option. Using needle bearings might allow a bit more freedom for things to be binding yet still free enough to allow the suspension to work.

My $.02, your mileage may vary...

PS: the Haynes VW manual that covers the early 60's Type ones is quite useful and cheap!
Bruce
cendiv37
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Alignment tips..

Post by tiagosantos »

Bruce - thanks for the super detailed instructions. Dummy me really needs all the detail I can get!

I have some VW books coming soon, will add the haynes in there.. I guess I keep forgetting that a lot of this stuff applies to "normal" street driven beetles too :)
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