So that was the funny noise...

1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

After watching my engine spit large drops of oil out of the exhaust, I decided to take it out and find out what was wrong. (I put a video on my website). I had also noticed a different sound to the engine but it seemed to be running just fine. After pulling the heads and cylinders off, I found one piston that was damaged all around the wrist pin hole on both sides. The cylinder also had 2 deep gouges as well. One of the wrist pin clips had come loose but had not come out. It looks like it may have been put half-way in when the engine was put together. It managed to bugger up the piston all the way up to the oil ring, hence the oil coming out of the exhaust. I went ahead and pulled the rest of the motor apart. The block and crank look good. The heads are fine too. It looks like the pin just got wore down to a nub but stayed in the pin area. I will post some photos. The block is a 1963 40hp block but cam bearings have been machined in. Also noticed that the lower half of the plastic piece that guides the fuel pump shaft was broken and jammed into the block. That will come out ok.

When I pulled out the removable set of main bearings, they had these markings on them.

BC 233
H 75 (MAY NOT BE AN H)
GP 025

Is that .025 over on the crank or on the block?

Trying to get the new motor in next week.
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

Once again Dietmar to the Rescue! Thanks for the help. Looks like I have a standard 40hp block and 30 over mains. I'll take a look at the rods when I pull the crank apart. Thank You Again Dietmar!
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

It only gets worse...... So I traded a 1776 VW engine and 2 AS41 blocks for a completely rebuilt 40HP so I could just put it in and get to the April 17th drivers school. Got the new engine in thins morning, started it up (sounded great like a new engine should) then after 30 seconds, it stopped very fast. Tried to start it again and it would not turn over. Pulled the engine out and it is frozen solid. No pre-freeze noise at all. Would not even turn over with a 4-foot breakerbar.

Gets even worser (ok.. not a real word but just the way I feel) ... I pulled out my backup engine that I was only going to use if I had too and this looks like a have-to situation. I bought this engine last year at a swap meet. The guy had one of the valve covers off and it looked good and it turned over just fine with a socket and ratchet. This was a 1964 block but it had been dealer rebuilt and had case savers and the smaller 8mm head studs so I figured it would be a great backup. Started putting it in and I pulled BOTH valve covers to paint them (they were yellow). One head was clean as a whistle but the other one had grey sludge in it, like water had gotten it it. I tilted the engine over and about a quart of water poured out along with a pound or two of sludge. Pulled off the bottom pan to look at the screen and it was completely clogged with sludge. Took it all apart and pieces of the block around the screen just broke off. There were chunks of what looked like hard white calcium or salt clumps too. No idea what that is. Anyway... 3 bad motors in just 3 days. I have not heard from the guy who built the motor but he a a good guy and I am sure he will do something about it. In the meantime, I am going to rebuild the original motor and put new pistons and cylinder in. Looking a lot like I will not make the April drivers school....
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by FV80 »

Roger,
I STRONGLY suggest that you have your engine professionally rebuilt. By that, I mean, rebuilt by a known FORMULA VEE engine builder. There are MANY ideosyncrasies involved with making these 'stretched out' motors stay in one piece in the car. If you want to make RACE WEEKENDS, pay the money up front and then go have a blast. Else you'll likely spend MANY MANY weeks like you have the last one ... and not get much (if any) RACING done.
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by jpetillo »

Roger, Steve is giving you excellent advise on this. You don't want to go to the school and have yet another engine problem. You need to concentrate on the school and not the car. You need the car to be dependable - all year. John
Rickydel
Posts: 199
Joined: July 5th, 2006, 11:09 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by Rickydel »

Roger,
Listen to John when he says listen to Steve. What Steve didn't tell you in so many words, but he was eluding to is this: (Sorry Steve, but I'm about to put words in your mouth.) We have all seen the racer show up with a fresh engine either built by their buddy that has built many VW engines, or from a buggy shop that's built thousands of HI Performance VW engines, or an engine that was running perfectly in the beetle it was taken out of just the week before BUT, they go out on the track and blow up their "new" engine. Many, many FV drivers had to learn this fact. My parents had to learn it in the 60s, and nothing has changed. As a community, we try to keep newer drivers from having to learn the same thing the hard way.

For your driver school, I might suggest finding a fellow vee driver nearby and negotiating a rental fee for an engine.

Sorry for your troubles. It is a blues song we all know very well.
Good luck.

Ricky del
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

Sounds like great advice from folks who have been where I am now. I'll see what I can do. I do have the good FV short block to at least start with. Thanks for the help.
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
pillowmeto
Posts: 103
Joined: January 5th, 2008, 12:54 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by pillowmeto »

I'm sure you do not need to be told this, but it is always worth mentioning. Maybe someone doing a future search will find it useful. Always make sure that you have oil pressure before you start the engine, and watch it for a while after the first start. It can take a lot of cranking until you build up the pressure, packing the oil pump with grease will decrease the time required. After a failure, it is always a good idea to check the lines, filter, and cooler before attempting to install another engine. I have known multiple engines in a row to die from something like a failed hose that the owner did not catch.
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

I did turn it over to see if it had pressure and it did. I will clean everything out to make sure no junk is left behind. Good advice and Thanks. I am going to tear it down tomorrow and see what happened. The guy who built the motor has washed his hands of it. Said it was fine when it left his shop. Maybe I can salvage some parts for future use.Thanks again for the help...
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

The rear bearing spun and welded itself to the crank. All other bearings are fine. Everything is new inside. Looks like the oil passages in the block or crank may have been clogged. I still have a lot of good parts though.
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
Dave
Posts: 187
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by Dave »

Sounds like not enough end play.

Dave
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

For now, I am putting the new pistons cylinders and heads on the original VEE engine that was spitting oil due to the broken ring. The engine had new rings put in before I bought it and I think they just did not seat the clip well. I think this will get me thru drivers school as it is a balanced VEE engine. I'll check the pistons for weight and static balance them before I put them in. The heads are 373's and have been completely rebuilt. I do have a nice VEE intake (Thank You Rick) and a beautiful carb (Thank You Dietmar) so I think the engine will run just fine thru school. I'll let you know.
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by brian »

Roger, I am willing to bet that the rear main bearing bore is no longer round and that caused the seizure. Have someone dial out the bore with the cases torqued. Your experience with the rear main is very common and almost ALWAYS caused by an oval main bearing bore in the case. See my other posts regarding this issue.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by 1969zeitler »

That case (the spun bearing case) is toast. It spun so hard that it turned the pin sideways in the bearing saddle and slotted the block. I guess it could be welded and machined but I am not going to trust it. The case I am building is fine. Only thing that was wrong was the wrist-pin clip came loose and ate the side of the piston and put a really nice groove in the cylinder wall. The other 3 pistons/cylinders are fine but I have a new set to replace them all with. I will check the bad block anyway. I have a bore gauge. Between the oval bore and the too tight thrust... It would not take it long to seize (about 30 seconds to be exact!!!) I hope to get the engine together over the weekend and another day or 2 to get it all back in the car. Of course... it never works out that way for me...
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by FV80 »

Roger,
I hope you are familiar with 'end gap' - you need to make sure that you have enough. Too much, just costs you a tad of HP (maybe) - too LITTLE, costs you a set of P&C's (and a race weekend) :-).

Good luck,
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
pillowmeto
Posts: 103
Joined: January 5th, 2008, 12:54 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by pillowmeto »

This is where someone adds a recommendation on what end gap should be set at, right?
Hal
Posts: 107
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:36 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by Hal »

Had a Vee guy several years ago try and get throught a Midwestern Council drivers school three times, first time with the engine that came in the car, blew up in the first session. 2nd time he had the motor rebuilt by a tune buggy guy who had built hundreds of mortors, bad rod. 3rd time after the buggy guy fixed it and guraranteed it, 'nother bad rod. Never did get past about 4 sessions and finally just quit. By the way the "buggy" engine was dead slow, would not go over 5500 rpm.


Hal
FV 88
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by FV80 »

pillowmeto wrote:This is where someone adds a recommendation on what end gap should be set at, right?
IIRC, about 0.016 is in the neighborhood. HOWEVER,.... remember my suggestion earlier in this thread for saving yourself a *LOT* of grief on ////AT the track. I gave up building my own engines back in the early 80's ... and there was a definite REASON for that !! <g>
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by FV80 »

OK - so my memory IS FAILING :)... I hear that a better number is around .004 - nope ... I was right the first time - it should be 'around' 0.016 (but don't trust my numbers <G> - but the important thing is to make sure you HAVE SOME! Put the rings in the bore and use a piston to push down to about 1/2 piston depth - then measure with a feeler gage. If the ends are touching, you need to file the ring to get 'some' clearance.
Steve

edited to correct - correction on ring gap - there was some confusion on ring gap vs. crank end play...
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by brian »

Stock clearance calls for .004 to .006 but that's too tight for a vee engine. I recommend .008 to .012. Anything over .012, the crank will slop back and forth causing issues with the cam and timing, not to say what happens to the thrust areas of the main bearings.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Matt King
Posts: 304
Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by Matt King »

Are you guys talking about crankshaft end play or piston ring end gap, both, or neither? :?

edit: I see I am not the only one confused by the subject. :lol:
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by FV80 »

Matt King wrote:Are you guys talking about crankshaft end play or piston ring end gap, both, or neither? :?

edit: I see I am not the only one confused by the subject. :lol:
All of MY posts in this thread relate to John's "question" above
This is where someone adds a recommendation on what end gap should be set at, right?
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Rickydel
Posts: 199
Joined: July 5th, 2006, 11:09 am

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by Rickydel »

There is End Play and Ring Gap. I don't think anyone refers to an "end gap". This may be where the confusion began.
I truly believe no one was asking about Ring gap, but heck, I could be wrong too.

Ricky del
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by brian »

I'm writing about the end play for the crankshaft. On the rear main in a VW engine there are vertical thrust surfaces to control the lateral movement of the crank. By using different thickness shims, the assembler sets this end play to a preferred distance. Many engines have some method to control the lateral movement.

Rings need an end gap to prevent the ring ends from butting up against one another when the engine gets hot and jamming on hte cylinder wall. Usually a rule of thumb is .004 per inch of bore. In our case of 3.03" bore, the end gap for a ring should be around .012. The end gap can be bigger, but it will allow more compression to escape.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: So that was the funny noise...

Post by cendiv37 »

Let's throw in connecting rod side clearance while we're at it :shock:
Bruce
cendiv37
Post Reply