Fire Suit question

[1969zeitler]

Whats your opinion on drivers suit for Vintage.

1. Single layer with under wear

2. Multi layer

3. Multi layer with under wear

Does your opinion change if you are driving in August in Florida?

I looked thru the SCCA GCR and did not find anything on how old the suit, gloves, shoes etc should be. Is there a requirement to have a suit with a certain date like the helmets?

Thanks

[Matt King]

Do the flames burn cooler on a vintage car? If it was me, I'd race in a modern SFI 3.1/5 suit with a nomex undershirt.

[fv195]

suits have no date.
I have found wearing a 1 layer with underwear is cooler, even in FL. try to get the Carbon-x stuff it is the most comfortable,IMO, but also most expencive.
THOR
FV#70
CFR region member
you could allways get a "cool-shirt" they DO work, but can not find room for the cooler in my vee

[1969zeitler]

Thor,

Are you going to Daytona this weekend?

[jmattox]

We will show you what we wear Saturday. Shawn insists that the nomex underwear is hot, or something like that. I always wear one piece suit + nomex underwear. We both wear a headsock and nomex socks.

John

[RickyBobby]

Get the best fire suit that you can afford. Back in the days when your vintage car was state-of-the-art, those guys wore the best that was available. Believe it or not, fire is just as hot and deadly today as it was back then. However, we are all the benefactors of superb technology and have a greater safety envelope around us . . . should we choose to provide it for ourselves. Remember, when driving your vintage car, what ever class it may be, the purse ($$$) available to win is nothing more than the satifaction of your ego. Save your skin and your life.

If you want to know what I use in both SCCA and HSR/SVRA . . . A Sparco 3 layer suit with nomex underwear. Suffice it to say, I've been a practitioner in a burn intensive cae unit, and it ain't pretty.

Bob

[fv195]

I can't make it this weekend.
THOR

[hardingfv32-1]

If you want to save your life.... do not race!

Although lacking statistical data from SCCA, I'm going to estimate you are MUCH more likely to be killed than suffer a serious burn. If you have are paranoid about a burn injury, then buy all means get the most expensive and warmest to wear fire-suit possible. BUT remember, that even a Top Fuel aluminized fire suit is good for maybe 15 sec. in a good fire. Some reasonable risk to comfort/cost analysis is call for here.

Brian

[Matt King]

So what is your point? That he shouldn't wear the same type of multi-layer SFI 3.1/5 suit that 99 percent of everyone else who road races wears? BTW, they haven't used "aluminized" fire suits in Top Fuel for about 40 years.

But to go back to the original question, here is the SCCA rule on fire suits:

1. Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to
the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended.
All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label
or FIA 1986 Standard or FIA 8856-2000 homologation label.
Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with
suits carrying FIA 1986 Standard, or FIA 8856-2000 label or
SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch.

So basically you can wear a single-layer suit with a Nomex undershirt or a multi-layer suit with or without it.

[NotMoss]

Just curious...in reading the SCCA GCR quote you listed...where do you get that just a Nomex undershirt (not full coverage)will suffice with a single layer suit?

[Matt King]

I over simplified by saying just an undershirt--you need the pants too. The point I was making is that you can either wear a single layer suit with a secondary layer of fire resistent underwear, or a multi-layer suit with fire resistent underwear optional.

[RacerGeek]

I'll preface my reply by stating I have been in a burning Formula Vee for 10-15 seconds with the flames blowing on my butt. I was wearing a fairly new 3 layer suit and still got what was basically a "sun burn" on my butt. While fire is always a possibility, I have read that many more people have died from heat exhaustion while racing than have been seriously burned. I agree with people that say the get lightest SFI 5 rated suit plus a layer of CarbonX underwear. The CarbonX will wick moisture away from your skin and help keep you cooler. Not cool - but cooler. Materials that are lighter and wick moisture away are more expensive, but probably worth it if you race in a hotter climate.

Also think about you physical condition. You can't go from sedentary to 30-40 minutes of extreme exertion in high heat and humidity and reasonably expect to not have a problem. If you can't run or ride a bike reasonably hard for 30 minutes, consider tightening the nut behind the wheel.

[hardingfv32-1]

My point would be that cost to benefit of expensive driver suits and helmets is extremely low. What are the chances (very rare) of actually needing your helmet or drivers suit? Now on top of that you have to have an event that exceeds the capacity of the lower cost helmet or drive suit.

And just to cut you off at the pass..... Yes, the cost to benefit of one of those pricey intake manifolds is many times greater, assuming it is not your intention to just cruise around the track.

Brian

[remmers]

Well, at the same time. I was wishing I had plunked down the money I spent on my manifold on a HANS or the like after I needed to go to the chiropractor to fix my neck after my accident at Watkins Glen...

And yes, I will be buying one before I get back out on the track again. Not gonna have my neck get injured for the 4th time...

[Matt King]

You know the old saying, if you have a $50 head, buy a $50 helmet...

I can't believe you are actually saying people should skimp on safety equipment so they can spend the money on one of your intake manifolds instead. Talk about unabashed advertising.

[RacerGeek]

My point would be that cost to benefit of expensive driver suits and helmets is extremely low. What are the chances (very rare) of actually needing your helmet or drivers suit? Now on top of that you have to have an event that exceeds the capacity of the lower cost helmet or drive suit.

I would have to disagree. If you only race at Watkins Glen or Road America in the fall, them a lower quality suit with older generation Nomex is no big deal. But, on a hot, humid day, fatigue is a very real factor that affects performance. You have to agree that sitting on grid in 3 layers of cheap, scratchy Nomex in 90 degree temperatures with 95% humidity will negatively affect your lap times at the end of the race to some extent. While I agree that, statistically, the chance of needing a fire suit to protect you from a fire is small, and the minimum requirements of the GCR can be met with a relatively inexpensive suit and helmet, it is not wasted money to get safety gear that keeps you cooler and less fatigued. Buying a high quality, lightweight, breathable racing suit and the lightest, most comfortable helmet you can find may well turn out to be worth the cost if they keep you mentally sharp enough at the end of a race to use all the added horsepower of a Monster Manny.

I also believe it is irresponsible for older drivers to tell newbies that it's not cost effective to spend money on safety equipment. If the argument is that you've had the same single layer suit and set of Nomex underwear for 20 years (or 25 years or 30 years), then you're really not qualified discuss the benefits of newer suits. It seems to me newbies need the best equipment the most. They are more likely to make a mistake with their car preparation or on the track that ends up testing the quality of their safety equipment. Everyone that races has to decide what is "safe enough". For me, it was worth it to buy expensive safety gear because at some point I plan to walk my daughter down the aisle at her wedding, and I didn't intend to ruin the photos of that day by being covered with burn scars or being in a wheel chair from injuries I got racing for a cheap trophy or plaque. You motivation may vary!

[hardingfv32-1]

There is no scientific relationship between cost and how safety gear will perform. While one is free to use price when making a decision, you might as well be flipping a coin. Price is also not the way to judge an intake manifold.

You are completely right about comfort and fatigue. I would just question how this is measured and how it can be designed into a suit and still meet the performance standards. Again, very little science on this subject.

The benefits from a lighter helmet are also valid, but the use of a HANS would negate any safety benefit. Side load fatigue would still be valid, although questionable with the forces generated by a FV. I think beyond this, expensive helmets buy you nothing. The science behind helmet safety is tenuous at best. The standards have been essentially the same for many decades. There are no varying grades to judge helmets with. How can you scientifically judge that an expensive helmet is better?

More expensive is better is just a marketing scheme. Having no other way to judge, you are using the only distinction being made available to you.

Brian

[RacerGeek]

There is no scientific relationship between cost and how safety gear will perform.

This is not true. You can find Proban suits online for under $100. You can also find Nomex underwear for $40 a set, so for less than $150 you can meet the letter of the GCR. Proban is cotton treated with fire retardant chemicals that will eventually wash out and offer no more protection than a sweat shirt. What's worse is you won't know exactly when you washed out your protection so you have the false sense of security that you are protected. Nomex suits are made from Nomex thread which is inherently fire resistant. It's protection will never wash out, but it is heavier and more expensive than Proban. Better costs more. Nomex III is Nomex mixed with kevlar. Same fire protection, but lighter, cooler and more expensive. Again, better costs more.

The benefits from a lighter helmet are also valid, but the use of a HANS would negate any safety benefit.

Again, simply not true. The vast majority of the weight of the HANS is carried on the shoulders, not the head. The hardware to attach the HANS adds ounces to the helmet and I believe most would argue the benefit when it is needed far outweighs the weight penalty of the hardware. Still, the weight of the HANS hardware is a constant and the benefits of a lighter helmet are the same with or without a HANS. And again, the materials used to give lighter helmets equal protection to heavier helmets (kevlar and carbon fiber VS. fiberglass) cost more, so better gererally costs more.

[hardingfv32-1]

Yes, better materials cost more. Yes, the more layers you have the longer you will last in a fire. But at what point is it just safer not to race? How are you choosing where you are along this gradient? Income level? Where is the science connecting the probable risk of a fire injury while racing with SCCA vs the cost of that protection.

With helmets, IF we are talking about the normal for/aft head movement injury, a std heavy low cost helmet is well within the safe operating range of a HANS. A lighter helmet is of no additional benefit in this example. I cannot speak to the side impact issue, but this does not seem to be a common injury. I would say you would be hard pressed to show better outcomes with lighter helmets.

I'm talking about outcomes after the normal SCCA accident. While logic would indicate that more expensive and lighter materials are better, there is no scientific studies to prove this. There are a host of other factors that could and/or probably negate the benefits of more expensive equipment.

If you have no answers and need to use price to make your decision, that is fine. It is completely understandable. I prefer to spend my money on what I know has been proven to work.

Brian

[CitationFV21]

At the Lime Rock National Ken Payson was involved in a terrible wreck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlHfGGgTVsc

He credits a HANS Device with maybe saving his life (he got out of the car by himself but has several fractured vertebrae in his neck).

At the same race a FV driver was flipped while being towed back to the pits.

At the Regional the previous month, I was just about to go out when I discovered a fuel leak - would have definitely been a fire.

Here is a story about a driver at a Vintage event:

http://www.skippyforums.com/forums/arch ... -3084.html

So things can happen.

I recently bought a Proban suit to replace my old Worth single layer suit. Got a 2 layer with the rating so I did not have to wear the underwear.

Did the research and the "can wash the fire resistance out" is probably overstated, but the suit is very heavy (Very) and bulky (got it from a roundy-round distributor). I take it off right away and hang it up, clean only once a year.

My suggestion - go to a race and ask. Look at the different brands and ask the drivers.

For FV racing, a light weight 2 layer Nomex suit and underware is probably the best price/effective combination. After that you pay for style, comfort and extra fire protection. A custom suit is great - just remember to leave some room for "growth".

As for helmets, I have always gone with the "if it meets the standards, it is okay" The faster you go (besides FV) then the weight makes a difference. But if you can afford a lighter helmet go for it. Make sure you try it on first. Proper size is very important and there are differences in manufacturers. I can wear Bell or Simpson, but I prefer Simpson for the way it fits. Others may have a different opinion. I also use a neck collar like a karting collar. I can't think of anyone I race with in FV that uses a HANS, but I would not laugh at anyone who does. It is not how fast you go, but how fast you stop.

Ask yourself this question - If you were in a fire or a crash, would you have any 2nd thoughts that you had purchased the right gear?

ChrisZ

[RacerGeek]

Whats your opinion on drivers suit for Vintage.

1. Single layer with under wear

2. Multi layer

3. Multi layer with under wear

Does your opinion change if you are driving in August in Florida?

I looked thru the SCCA GCR and did not find anything on how old the suit, gloves, shoes etc should be. Is there a requirement to have a suit with a certain date like the helmets?

Thanks

To answer Roger's questions, my advice would be a 2 layer, SFI 3.2/5 rated Nomex III suit with CarbonX underwear. It will not be inexpensive, but it will be the lightest and provide the best cooling which will help when racing in Florida in August. If he is just starting out and going to spent $1500 for a suit, shoes, gloves, helmet and HANS, why not spend $300-$400 more for a suit that is lighter and cooler to help him the stay more comfortable and focused while racing. While starting out in vintage, max performance is probably less important than max fun and safety. Feeling like you've spent 30 minutes in a broiler doesn't make racing fun.

As far as the HANS/helmet, I now understand that you're saying in a frontal inpact that the HANS is designed for there is no safety advantage to having a lighter helmet when using a HANS. True, but the advantage of the lighter helmet reducing fatigue is always there when going around 2-3 g corners or when braking hard going into a corner. The same with the lighter, breathable materials in the suits.

Again, I'm not saying everyone needs the "most, bestest" fire protection or impact protection - and I have been in a burning FV and slammed armco hard enough to get a concussion. "Better" in safety equipment isn't just about fire protection or impact protection. It's also about comfort and reducing fatigue which can improve performance, but comes at a higher price.

[72jeff]

spend some time hunting around and you can find that $1000+ suit for $500 or less.......the "higher" end suit makes a huge difference when the temperature goes up

[jpetillo]

Being from the motorcycle world, there have been recent helmet comparisons made where what Brian H. says is the case. You can get a helmet for under $200 that protects you as well as the $800+ helmet. Aside from some newer shell materials being lighter in some (not all) of the expensive helmets, there is almost no significant improvement in the technology that has been brought to the American market. Oh, and make it a car racing helmet with "fire-resistant materials" and the price is again doubled - ridiculous! Although safety can be associated with price in many items, it is hardly always the case.

It used to be that the more expensive helmets had more comfy liners and better ventilation, and better shield mechanisms, and the liner could be remover to be cleaned, but now the $200 helmets are leveling that playing field. So, get a comfortable one. If you ahve the money, but a lighter one. If you wear a HANS, then the weight is less important for the reason Brian mentioned.

For me, I bought a Bell for Vee racing, and had to pay an ungodly amount of money, but purely because I wanted it to fit my head. None of the other companies had a helmet that I could stand, regardless of price.

About a HANS, it's like seat belts in cars. Some swear by them and other swear against them. I wear one because I have had a neck injury from the bike accident and don't want to go there again. In that accident my head got pushed too far forward. I've had several Vee racers tell me about hard front-end collisions that left them with neck problems - mostly temporary. They all wear a HANS now - all but one. This is not proof, but this type of injury is what it's made for and these folks felt it was worth the money after experiencing the alternative. I think this is the point that people have been arguing about in the thread - proportion your money spent evenly based on whatever information you can get and your comfort level. This is what we do for performance mods.

I agree that a new driver is more likely to make mistakes driving and car setup (forgetting to put the gas cap on) and have an accident. So, safety equipment should be considered with that in mind.

With regard to the argument about pricing/choosing your fire suit reasonably, a question to ask is whether you should spend your money on an expensive suit or a newer fuel cell. With regard to fire safety, that fuel cell may be a better place to put your investment to lessen the chance of a fire from your cell rupturing. Some are simply too old to be safe.

I agree with those others that say you should heavily consider getting whatever suit/equipment makes you comfortable, and put that before cost. That is the most important thing, I think. I can put up with more heat from a hot day if I'm more comfortable. You should consider that because it might keep you out of an acident ion the first place.

So, I just stated what many other have already done - just my two cents.

I think you should consider putting a HANS or equivalent into your budget, and getting something now if it will work with your car. (Some cars/folks don't mix well with head/neck restraints.) Oh, and check out that fuel cell.

An then do your homework for suits and helmets that will fit your budget, and put the money into comfort.

John

[1969zeitler]

Whats is everyones opinion on Drivers shoes? High, mid or low tops?

[fv195]

I'm a mid guy, have a pair of high, but don't fit in the foot box that well. if you ever saw my car (small) you would understand. shoes are driver's call. what feels, works best for you and your car.