Lots of questions

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rstackjd

Lots of questions

Post by rstackjd »

Ok, the biggest disadvantage of being a "new guy" is that there are so many variables that it take quite a while just figure out where you are and what's what.

This weekend at BFR I can to a few realizations as to things I'm doing wrong. It seems to me that I'm braking much to soon and much to lightly - I think I need to go much deeper before braking and then hit the brakes much harder. Right now I've been applying the brakes in must turns at the 2 or 1.5 marker, but I suspect I should be closer to 1. I also think that the early braking is leading me to have too early of an apex, which is resulting in hitting rumbles too much coming out of 6 and 7.

So the first question I have is - is anyone who really knows how to drive BFR willing to give me a few tips on braking points (ie. marker 1, 2, or what?) and apexs.

Seecond - I think my front suspension is binding but I don't know how to analyze it. When I step down on the beam and release it only returns to about 1/2 back up. this became noticeable during the last race Sunday (when I started trying to brake much harder) as I started to notice pronounced scraping of the front end coming through the turns. I assume this is because as I brake harder, the weight transfer is pushing the nose down, and then it's not rebounding, thus the scraping. Then again (see the first sentence) I may have no idea what I'm talking about. Assuming the front end is binding - is there a way to determine whether it's the springs or the shocks that are the issue?

Finally, I know I've got a weight/power issue. My weight is at 1094 and my HP is about 55. So my power/weight ratio is about 0.05 hp/lb. Assuming a "strong" motor is at 61 and a car is at the right weight then the power/weight would be closer to 0.06 hp/ lb. It looks like I'm at about a 15-20% power/weight disadvantage - does this analysis make sense? Any thoughts as to how this would affect lap times?

EDIT - I'm running about 5-6 seconds per lap off the leaders in FV at BFR

Thanks!

Bob
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Lots of questions

Post by Dietmar »

Bob:

check your messages.
Dietmar
DTW00
Posts: 13
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 1:37 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by DTW00 »

Hey Bob,
I was there with you this weekend (00). I have asked this question numerous times myself and gotten everything from smoothly slow in and fast out to .....drive in til you see the face of god then turn. :shock: With that said, I look forward to seeing the responses.
DTW00
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by smsazzy »

Bob,

Let me preface my reply with letting you know I have never seen the track you specify.

That said, here are a few universal things that will get you started in your quest to close the gap in laptimes.

1- Don't be concerned with how late you are braking. Many of the fastest drivers are "soft" on the brakes. Concentrate more on how early you are able to be back on the gas. When I was starting out, I wanted to be able to turn in and be 100% on the throttle before I hit the apex. Once you are fast enough that this doesn't work anymore, you will be in the ball park of where the front runners are. Obviously, this is a general rule with exceptions. But generally, he who is on the gas first will get to the end of the straight away first.

2- If you are too early, it may be because you are not looking through the corner, but rather staring at the turn in point. For this reason, I prefer visual cues over spots on the track to turn in. Use sight lines to decide where to turn in. Discover the sight line on an 80% warm up lap. As you approach the turn, focus on your braking point, once you reach that and start braking, immediately look to the apex of the corner. I like to line up two things, like a tree and a rock or something. Once those line up I turn in while focusing on my apex. The car will go where you are looking more times than not. Don't use cones, as they move, get hit etc. Then focus on your track out and then back down the road. Your eyes should always be at least one step ahead of the car. This will also slow things down for you as your speed increases. Watch some in car footage of an F1 race. You will always notice the drivers looking WAY past where they are on the track. They are looking to track out when they are turning in. Strive for this.

3- If the car is bottoming out, something is wrong. Maybe the spring pack is broken. Disconnect both shocks and step on the front. It is possible the shocks just have WAY too much rebound dampening, but I would suggest it may be a spring pack.

4- Get an in car video system. Maybe one of those hero cameras or something. Mount it on your roll bar so you can see you hands and what's in front of you. Video never lies. I have learned more from watching my own videos than anything else. I also highly suggest a data acquisition system that records Throttle Position, Steering position, wheel speed, and G's. I also log oil temps, pressure and cylinder head temps, but the first suggestions allow you to analyze what you are really doing in the cockpit. Try to find someone in the area that you can compare with. You will find areas to improve that way as well. Also have someone watch your videos. Feedback is the best way to learn from others.

This is of course only my opinion. Your results may vary.

Stephen Saslow
http://www.tcrmotorsports.com


P.S. Be weary of anyone giving you suggestions that is slower than you! 8)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
rstackjd

Re: Lots of questions

Post by rstackjd »

Thanks Stephen - those are all very helpful ideas.

I've talked to a couple people now (all faster than me :oops: ) who have given me thier take and suggestions - I need to start processing the information.

A data collection system for next season would be great, if the budget will allow it. I've been urged to attend the Midwest Counsel school this weekend (at the same track) for some hands on coaching from one the fast FV guys who is an instroctor there but neither my checking account nor the "bank of spousal tolerance" will support that withdrawal - two weekends in a row will be pushing it - but I think I might very well do that at the start of next season.

As for the front end I've gotten a few thoughts on that as well, and will be looking it this week - as soon as I get the car out of the trailer and into the garage. I suspect it's possible that something did break (there was one rather hard trip into the rumbles and beyond, well, ok two, this this weekend) and the scraping seemed to start after the second one, so you might well be right. Hadn't thought about that until you pointed that out. Dang it! But at least I have a spare spring pack - whether its good or not is another question, but I know I have one.

So much to learn. :shock: :?

Thanks all
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by smsazzy »

Video is cheaper than data, start there. You can watch your video for weeks or months after the event and continue to learn and pick up little things about your line, etc.

Good luck.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
rstackjd

Re: Lots of questions

Post by rstackjd »

smsazzy wrote:Video is cheaper than data, start there. You can watch your video for weeks or months after the event and continue to learn and pick up little things about your line, etc.

Good luck.
True. I'll have to look at how to set something up. I have a basic digital video camera that might be workable - I understand it won't be great - but it might get me soemthing.

Thanks
FVartist
Posts: 116
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:59 am

Re: Lots of questions

Post by FVartist »

I agree with Steve. The video is very helpful, especially if you have someone who is fast to compare yours to. I have learned a lot more watching them and noticing the differences. Line, Lift and braking point, turn in point, etc.

Bruce
Left Coast Formula Car Board
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by smsazzy »

I use and recommend the chase cam setup. Great unit and great customer service.

However, it is a bit pricey.

http://www.sracing.com/Store/Other_Stuf ... .htm#hero3

Try this for a cheaper alternative while starting out. I have one of these too, although I have not tried it yet. I believe plenty of folks are using them however.

This is cheaper than a test day, and in the long run, you will learn more. Plus, you can show your friends.... :P
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by Speedsport »

Bob,

Remove the upper bolts of your shocks and the front end should feel very "springy" and return to full height after you step on it. If it doesn't, the problem I have seen most is the link pins are a little bound up. I've had problems in the past with setting those too tight - they feel great in the shop, but after the car ran on the track I found them a little bound and had to back them off a touch.

All national drivers who race at blackhwak please stop reading now - :mrgreen:

As for Blackhawk - turns 6 and 7 are actually very difficult corners. When done right, at the end of the exit curbing you should see 5300 RPM in 6, and 5500 RPM in 7. (There is a drop off in the pavement on the outside of 1 just past the exit - when you pass that you should be seeing 6200 RPM).

Bob Lybarger told me years ago when I started that going fast at Blackhawk feels slow. He's right. 6 and 7 are soooo easy to try too hard in. The inside curb at 7 can be used - there is a patch of grass just inside of the apex curb - aim for that at turn in. At 6, the inside curb is way too steep and tall to get your front wheel more then 2-3 inches up it. Aim for the top of the curb about 3-4 feet past what looks like the center of the corner. That will usually get you in about the right spot as the car drifts. It's east to turn in too early at 6.

Get in the habit of watching the tach at the exit of every corner. Data system or not - it's the easiest way to know how you did on that corner. I can tell you what RPM you should see at the exit of any corner at Blackhawk, Road America, Grattan, Topeka, ect on good days - those numbers are embedded in my brain.

The braking point for turn one will be just before or at the 1 marker. I usually get on them just as the 1 is entering my side vision.

Most people leave a lot of time in 3d. The turn actually has a ton of banking to it if you go look at it. It's WAY faster then it seems like it should be. Inside curb can be used here - you can almost hook the inside tire over it.

So there is 10 years of secrets. Use them at your own risk!

Michael Varacins
rstackjd

Re: Lots of questions

Post by rstackjd »

Thank you Michael! Those are very helpful bits and will certainly be read and reread until seared into my memory. From what I can tell I am certainly leaving too much on the table in 3 - I'm still trying to figure out just how far I can push the car without ending up in the weeds. And although I don't know :oops: what my tach shows at the corner exit, you can bet I will next time. :mrgreen:

As for the suspension - I'll check that out.
Thanks again,

Bob
DTW00
Posts: 13
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 1:37 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by DTW00 »

Bob,
I ran with you at the firecracker and did a 1:25.6 which was good for me. However this Sunday at BFR I put on sticker tires, cycled them during practice and then raced them in the afternoon. I did a 1:23.8!! My fastest to date. Never believed that it was true good tires could give you 2 secs at BFR!! Add to that the fact I could relax and concentrate on hitting my marks instead of preparing to react to what might happen during the turn it made the cost of new tires well worth it. Hopefully I can bring that experience with me and deliver better times even when on not so good tires.
Dave
DTW00
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by brian »

I feel that the major contribution from sticker tires is the confidence they give you. Stickers tend to be very consistent and the driver can rely on them. Try being very gently and smooth with your hands and older tires will reward you.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by cendiv37 »

Bob,

Since you've gotten it straight from the (quickest) horse's mouth, there's really not much I can add as to how to get around Blackhawk. But of course that won't stop me...

Leave the late braking for later. Trying to brake as late as possible BEFORE you have the turn-in and apex figured out is a good way to NEVER find either of them. Focus on getting those right and then pull your braking points down towards the corner making sure you don't give up the right turn-in and especially the right apex. Eventually you do need to get it all going at once, but late braking gains you the least in lap times and costs you a lot when it screws up the corner.

My $.02
Bruce
cendiv37
1969zeitler
Posts: 288
Joined: March 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Re: Lots of questions

Post by 1969zeitler »

Did you ever figure out why your front end was binding? What was the problem and fix?
Roger
Orlando, Fl
car-less now



I have a VERY understanding Wife.
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Lots of questions

Post by problemchild »

Bob crashed the car on his next outing. He then converted the car to FST. I ended up with the beam, which was straightened, and is the carrying spare beam for my Canadian F1200 operation.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
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