Help about intake debate for us novices

problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by problemchild »

The proper rules probably won't reduce the cost of new manifolds but it will certainly reduce the number of people that require new manifolds or reworking of their current manifolds! That seems apparent to all but those trying to make a living selling intake manifolds.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Giving up on being competitive is the only thing that will reduce the the need for new manifolds or rework.

90% of all FV competitors are down serious HP, because of their manifolds, when compared to the front runners. This is Nat and Reg level racing.

Brian
Matt King
Posts: 304
Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by Matt King »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:Matt
Most Vee racers might think their manifolds are competitive, but the FACT is they are down 2-3 HP from the front runners. This is what I have observerd form the majority of my customers. New rules will just insure that you will never get to a level playing field.
Whatever you say, but I sure don't want to see that gap grow to 5-6 just because somebody thinks it's OK to create their own liberal interpretations of the current rules.
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by problemchild »

Having raced FV in Nationals since 1986, it would be my opinion that:

99+% of Regional competitors do not spend the money or develop their complete programs to be capable of being Run-off contenders.

90+% of National competitors do not spend the money or develop their complete programs to be capable of being Run-off contenders.
(after that you need talent and luck .... which is why there are only a few real contenders every year. Being top-ten is not necassarily a contender .... I ran as high as 3rd and 4th in different years .... I was never a true contender ..... and I certainly am not blaming my intake manifold !!!!)

I agree that some of the remaining racers may be potential customers for improved intake manifolds. That is a very small percentage of competitors. They do and will have the choice to deal with whatever engine/manifold venders they choose. Let's get everybody using the same rules with the most minimal effect to the status quo!

Nice sales pitch though. :roll:
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Bill Carroll
Posts: 72
Joined: January 21st, 2009, 8:33 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by Bill Carroll »

Being a novice I just want to get out there and learn, keep it on track, allow faster cars by correctly and bring it home in one piece. I am sure that by the end of this season, I'll be in the mix looking for the perfect set-up, the best line, how to clean up the aero and then as a racer how to go faster. So for now I am in the 99%. Then I'll worry about shelling out the bucks for a good engine, or update to mine.

I hope that this manifold issue gets resolved and whoever had the snake that ate the rat manifold, or what ever caused this current issue gets fully disclosed and the seasoned racers speak loud enough to be heard. When I was racing circle track we had a manifold issue too, it was supposed to be a part number XXX without mods from the parts store, one engine builder found that if he ported and flowed them and then acid etched them the surface looked stock, it took an entire season to convice the officials that this was an illegal manifold but finally cost the driver his points (engine was sealed the first week by the track), the rest of us never made our loss up for the year, in points or winnings. Main reason I'm looking a FV, bacuse of it's reputation.
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by smsazzy »

problemchild wrote:The proper rules probably won't reduce the cost of new manifolds but it will certainly reduce the number of people that require new manifolds or reworking of their current manifolds! That seems apparent to all but those trying to make a living selling intake manifolds.
To everyone complaining about liberal rule interpretations,

Are you claiming that the bends of your manifold were 0.994 inches all the way around the bends and down to the mounting flange that sits on the head?

Are you also claiming that your manifold was NEVER ball sized to the maximum allowed dimension? (Ball sizing is not specifically listed as an allowed modification, so if it doesn't say you can do it, don't - right?)

If so, then congratulations. I am impressed with the level of performance you were able to achieve.

If not, then stop playing the holier than thou card and claiming everyone else had too liberal of an interpretation of the rules except for you.

I don't care if a rule is passed or not, what I do want is a manifold of equal performance to Brad, Nuby, Steve O, etc. Not that I think the manifold is preventing me from running with them, but because I want to know that I have the best available. Make that available and I could care less about the rule changes.

(I will copy this onto the other thread too where it really belongs.)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by Speedsport »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:90% of all FV competitors are down serious HP, because of their manifolds, when compared to the front runners.
This seems like an awfully strong statement to make Brian and may be spreading some fear that is not justified. I would be willing to bet the difference between the manifolds on probably the top 25 cars at the runoffs is less then 1 HP. I have tried many of the "greatest manifolds ever" on our dyno and the differences are very small, some even within the window of error on the dyno.

If your statement is true, then count me as one of the 90% down serious HP because my manifold is on par with most other "national" manifolds we've seen on our dyno.

Michael Varacins
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Michael

Yes, my statement is strong but completely true based on info from customer sales I have made. We are talking about Nat and Reg level racing. I would agree with your assessment of the top 25 Runoff competitors being within 1 HP, but who gives away one HP at the Runoffs and wins? At Road America??

Two ways to look at the fear around the subject of manifolds:
1) You fear that you will need to buy something better to stay competitive, OR
2) You fear that you will NOT be able to buy something that makes you competitive.

Brian
Bill Carroll
Posts: 72
Joined: January 21st, 2009, 8:33 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by Bill Carroll »

I feel that the information provided here has helped many of us understand the history and reasoning about this manifold issue. I thank eveyone agian for the input. He's what I see (an update):

In the beginning there were a lot of new manifolds available and some spent their time getting them in large quantities and flowing them to pick out the best ones, which did have a HP advantage. A bit later some used acid and/or balls to make their average ones as good as or better than the best of the stock ones.

Rules and measurments were put in place to set a standard that everyone could stirve for and were intended to prevent an escalation beyound that limit. The rule was worded in a way that the inspector at the track was directed to check certain things at certain places. For years this allowed improvemtns as long as the modificcations did not get out of control (a subjective idea or limit) . As I understand it this past year areas that are not measured, accoridng to the rules, have been modifed beyond what has been seen before, in an attempt to gain an advantage in HP. This has become a topic that some want addressed, to keep the HP in check and keep this a drivers class, not a cubic dollars class (if that is really possible).

So maximum measurements that can be taken anywhere are proposed and would limit the amount of modifications. At the same time not eliminating modifications that have been done prior to the last yaer, and presumably in large quantities to stand.

For a novice this seems to be a attempt to set a new limit and keep the intention of FV in check. It sounds fair and will prevent the next several levels of modifications from becoming a required need to stay with the pack. I do see that the rules that directed a measurement in a ceratin area seems to allow modifications elsewehre without limts, and this could get real expensive. It will also continue to reduce the amount of available manifolds as each one gets modified to whatever the inspection/rules allow. Theres a lot of technology that could be applied to this one item and increase the expense very quickly. Pressing balls through a pipe could quickly go to another level. A concern is that science such as physics and fluid dymanics and special manufacturing processes, not yet used here, will now become an area of study required to build a competative part beyound what any of have seen to date.

I am starting in FV this year to learn to drive an older Vee and hope to run with the pack when I get some experiance. Unless I have been mislead, If I become a good driver this is possbile without shelling out big $$$ so I don't get left in the dust. I think that is the intent of the proposals and the sport, I hope this issue gets resolved (without having to hire an engineer to be comptative).
remmers
Posts: 164
Joined: December 4th, 2008, 10:07 pm

Re: Help about intake debate for us novices

Post by remmers »

From what I understand, the problem with the new manifolds was the rules specifically say that it's a spec class, if the rules don't say you can, you can't. I personally don't think the manifolds are strictly within the rules because it doesn't say that you're allowed to expand the metal. That being said, I'm bringing our B manifold to get it expanded for my dad and I anyways.
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