Extended sump question

[flat tappet]

Is anyone using a legal extended sump to carry more oil? If so, how do you extend the oil pickup pipe?

Thanks!

[Dietmar]

A few methods come to mind-

-weld (braze)it on

-extend the existing pipe with a hose and a hose clamp

-insert a pipe inside a hose, clamp the hose to the pickup tube in the case and a second clamp on the insert.

-there is also a kit that has a pipe that has an expanded end, is spit and fits over the pickup, then clamped.

Hope this helps.
Dietmar

[flat tappet]

Thanks ,Dietmar...helps alot. Are most racers using these sump expansion tanks?

Thanks,

Bruce

[cendiv37]

I think most of us do use some kind of extension as well as significant baffling in the case. Oil starvation is an issue with Vee's and the sump extensions help postpone/reduce if not totally eliminate it.

[flat tappet]

Bruce..dumb question...how are you baffling the case?

THanks,

Bruce

[brian]

There are aftermarket windage trays available. Scat, Bugpack are some of the suppliers. Some folks make their own but it takes some development to make a good one. Check with a local bug shop, most carry the standard windage tray.

[flat tappet]

Thanks Brian

[SR Racing]

We also have the windage trays in stock. You may also want to weld in a divider to the tray or it can be welded to the sump pickup umbrella.

Jim

[flat tappet]

Thanks Jim

[kidkoh]

check e-bay under formula vee. there is a large capacity oil sump with pickup for sale. just so there is no confusion this is a friend of mine and I will be buying one for myself

[Dietmar]

Took a look at the sump extension on e-bay. Very nice. How deep is this item?

On the down side: it is difficult to see the part that has the drainage hole and the bolt, but if this part of the sump extends beyond the original cover plate, then the sump is not SCCA legal.

Dietmar

[kidkoh]

it should be legal the bottom sump is no larger than the ring to mount it to the case. its hard to see in the pic but the sump is larger at the bottom so there is a lip to keep more oil in the bottom. . it comes with everything you need. sorry for the advertiser but I think that it is a cool item that I think may save my motor somday

[Dietmar]

Guess my concern is that - IF the lower portion is larger than the mounting surface, and the flat area that has the drain is still larger than the lower circumference, then I would question the legality.

Lot of $$$ to find out that it can not be used.

You are correct in that a sump will help with the life of your engine. I asked about the depth because some sumps extend below the bottom frame rail and have been known to rip off on an off course excursion.

Dietmar

[Dave]

Remember max capacity is 250cc or 8.45 oz.

Dave

[flat tappet]

Guess my concern is that - IF the lower portion is larger than the mounting surface, and the flat area that has the drain is still larger than the lower circumference, then I would question the legality.

Lot of $$$ to find out that it can not be used.

You are correct in that a sump will help with the life of your engine. I asked about the depth because some sumps extend below the bottom frame rail and have been known to rip off on an off course excursion.

Dietmar

Thanks Dietmar

I sent the seller an email asking about the total depth of the sump. I also see your point regarding the width. Hard to tell from the photo.

Thanks again,

Bruce

[hardingfv32-1]

This is a good point about the drain plugs on the side of sumps probably are outside the legal limit.

What would be the status of a hose and fittings that go from the sump to the valve covers?

Brian

[Mad Dog Racing]

I see different dimensions on every chassis as far as engine location. The newer ones seem less than the older ones, but I'm probably just getting old and cranky. The drop sump that (barely) fits my Citation hangs about 1/4" to 5/16" below the frame rail on the Protoform. So I'm cycling over to a new drop sump as the engines get rebuilt. Seem to remember room for a 2x4 under the drop sump in the Caldwell. Just one of the things to check when you get a new (or new to you) car as a roller, like remembering to cut the top of the bellhousing before you drop an engine in a Citation from another car or with a new case. I only forgot about three different times.

[Dietmar]

Brian:

Not so concerned about the drain plug- have to look at "fasteners are free" as an argument, however, I am concerned about the "block" that the drain plug fits into as being part of the sump and being outside the horizontal plane of the cover plate. As I stated earlier, it is hard to tell by the picture.

Dietmar

[jpetillo]

This is a good point about the drain plugs on the side of sumps probably are outside the legal limit.
What would be the status of a hose and fittings that go from the sump to the valve covers?
Brian

That's an excellent idea!

Can anyone explain to me why there would be regulations on the sump reservoir size? What is the discriminating performance advantage? It seems like some of us are losing our engines - or at least damaging our engines unnecessarily - because of the current limitation. If we can get a larger reservoir down the bottom and it gives us another few seconds of oil, what's the problem with that?

John

[Matt King]

Does any one run an Accusump in FV? They are allowed per GCR 9.3.1. I've run one for years on my Mustang with a stock pan and it definitely works, which I can prove by having "accidentally" data-logged oil pressure with and without the vavle open a couple of times.

[Dave]

The GCR doesn't limit the sump except for capacity, it could be a 10X10 lump of lead with a 250cc capacity and it would be legal.
Dave

[Dietmar]

Dave:
Try C.5.D.29

An oil sump extension may be fitted utilizing the oil strainer cover plate provided the extension does not extend horizontally beyond the edge of the oil strainer cover plate...

To me that does not allow a 10 X 10 lump of lead.

Dietmar

[jpetillo]

Dietmar,

Do you know what the point is of this GCR rule? What is the safety or performance limitation that imposing it will address?

Thanks, John

[Dietmar]

John:

Going back as far as the 72 GCR (my oldest copy), the size limit has always been the same, as has the volume limit.
Who is to know what their thinking was when they wrote these rules. I can only guess that they did not want sumps hanging under the frame rails. As for dimensional size, the first sumps that I remember seeing simply had a section of the cover plate turned out on a lathe, a pipe( large o.d. tube) was welded to the old plate, and the part that was removed was welded back on to the bottom. It is possible that this is the reason for the horizontal dimension. Some of these are still available today. Generally, they are smaller in volume than 250cc's.
As for losing engines due to oil starvation, I would suggest looking at the baffle(s) or lack of baffling in the engine.

If you feel the need, you can start by writing the FV Ad Hoc Committee a letter with your concerns AND suggestions and I am sure the issue will be addressed.

Dietmar

[jpetillo]

Dietmar, Thanks, that was helpful.

From my limited involvement in Vees, I've routinely seen/heard the following:
- Overfilling engine just to keep enough oil in the sump for extended cornering
- When an engine blows, first thing to ask is when when last time the oil was checked - you may have lost pressure in the big corner.
- I've heard people saying that the limited sump size is ridiculous and the cause of too many engine failures.

I'm not the one to pass judgment on whether the above is wives tales or not. But, there's a good chance that I lost an engine in 2007 due to this. It's only conjecture. But, I'd hate to see others have such a setback for no good reason - it was a definite financial setback and is affecting my racing schedule even this year.

Anyway, back in '72 when the cornering forced were no doubt lower, this may not have been detrimental to engine survivability and the idea of having them not hang below the framerails is no doubt a good idea.

Before I draft something to send into the FV Ad Hoc Committee, I'd want to have a reasonable idea that the recommendation is well founded and makes sense, and I'd want to gather ideas from others. Let me say that, as a relative newcomer, I'm not sure I'm the right guy. Having this come from folks like yourself, Brain, Brian Harding, etc. who the Committee knows would suggest something for the right reason perhaps would hold more weight.

Anyway, I'm willing to do it and would encourage people to send thoughts. I'd hate to see the current solution that we see on eBay be considered illegal. It's a nice improvement.

John