What oil and weight for summer in New England?

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flat tappet
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Joined: December 20th, 2008, 4:43 pm

What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by flat tappet »

Any help with the above would be great! Looks like Brad Penn racing oil would be good for Vee engines since it's loaded with ZDDP. Also,since we rum from April at NHMS to Sept at LRP(with big temp swings) should I run a multi like 20w50 or a single grade?

Thanks fro any help,

Bruce
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

This zink issue is over rated as far as Vees go. You should not have enough spring pressure to matter, 100 lbs (Vee) vs 1000 lbs for a Pro Stock V8. Maybe when breaking in a new cam and lifters. The OEM guys seem to to be handling the change.

Every change of 10 (30w to 40w) with the oil weight is a .5 hp. Now the difficult part.....how fast do you want to go?

Brian
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Larry Bradley
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Larry Bradley »

10W30,BUT MORE IMPORTANT::: SYNTHETIC!!!!
SYNTHETIC!!!
SYNTHETIC!!!

Larry
Now a promise made is a debt unpaid, and the trail has its own stern code.
SR Racing
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by SR Racing »

Brian and I will have to disagree on the importance of zinc in the oil. <g>

I would use an good synthetic "off road" or "not for highway use" oil. (they contain more zinc compounds than the street oils") All the engine builders saw the cam failures a few years ago when the steet oils removed most of their zinc. And it wasn't just Vee's. CompCams, Elgin, Engle and everyone else saw double and triple cam failures. A pro stocker with much higher pressures uses a roller cam with full face contact. A vee uses a convex lifter face and of course, no roller. Our 100lbs is almost equivelant to their 1000 at contact point pressures. (and they use a zinc additive also.) After break-in you can probably get by with a low zinc oil, but why take the chance? Especially since zinc also protects your bearings a bit better.
A 10W-30 is fine in most all cases, but your actual clearances and resultant oil pressure will have to dictate what is really required. Just make sure you never drop below 25 psi when wot torque is used on the track. That should typically be above 3500 rpm. When little or no torque is applied 10psi is fine and at warm idle it may drop below that in to the 6-7 psi area.
flat tappet
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Joined: December 20th, 2008, 4:43 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by flat tappet »

Thanks Jim!

That's why I buy all my parts from you :mrgreen:
John Deonarine
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Joined: November 5th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by John Deonarine »

Bruce, Amsoil has introduced 3 new synthetic racing oils: 5W-20, 10W-30 and 15W-50. If would like more information, please PM.

John
Dietmar
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Dietmar »

John:

You did not mention that the new Amsoil Racing oils also have zinc ( so I did it for you)

Dietmar
hardingfv32-1
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Is Amsoil for real? I always thought of it as a Ponzi sales scheme.

Brian
Matt King
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Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Matt King »

What do you mean? Amsoil produces the finest lubricants on the planet. They cannot be equalled, let alone surpassed. Don't your read their "independent" studies?? :lol:
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Yes, all the independent studies are a little worrying. I also do not like to see a Google product search over powered by one brand.

Brian
SR Racing
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by SR Racing »

Several years ago we particiapted in a test with Lubrications Sciences (used to be part of Mobile Labs)

Amsoil was ok oil. The only problems with it were that the actual compound mixtures varied from batch to batch. This was a concern of LS, since it was indicative of poor QC. To their credit, the Amsoil did meet all specs. The problem I have with it, is their wild use of totally fabricated testimonials. (Claims of 40 deg drops in oil temps, 10% more mileage, etc.etc. ANYONE who understands oils, knows very well that these are bogus and actually impossible as far as a 10% increase in mileage or HP. (since TOTAL frictional losses in a IC engine aren't 10%.)

A short story..skip if bored... : After the above tests I posted some of the results that were not proprietory on a web site. (automotiveforums.com)
I received a letter from Amsoil telling me to stop the posts, with some idle threats in it. (As childish as it sounds they actually said "How would you like it if we posted bad things about your business on a web site." I provide the letter to my lawyer. In the interrim, I did some checking on one of the tests that Amsoil called a "Diluth MN, Fleet test". Supposedly, they tested Amsoil on the Diluth police car fleet. Resulting in thousands of dollars in savings on oil and maintenance. I contacted the Diluth police dept.. They advised me that they did not maintain their own cars and it was contracted out to a private garage. I contacted the garage that did the work... Management there was not aware of ANY test or use of Amsoil. However, they had me talk to an employee there who had been there several years before current management. That employee told me that a few years before there was an employee who was an Amsoil dealer. He undertook an experimentof his own on 2 (TWO!) police cars. The savings was basically the result of skipping oil changes. I was told that that employee was no longer with the company..... Back to the lawyer... He laughed and sent them back a letter threatening them. (Lawyers love this crap) and referenced the bogus Diluth Fleet test. They (Amsoil) responded with an apology of sorts in regards to the "threat". In regards to the Diluth Fleet tests, they said they only used the info that their dealers provided them and cannot actually verify all the details !!! So while Amsoil might be fine... I am suspect of any company that has more dealers than customers, for all practical purposes has no retail outlets, uses flagrant wild testimonial claims, phony "fleet tests" AND their stupid use of the "4 Ball Oil tests." (That is another full story that I don't have the time to post...)
Another thing that somewhat bothers me is that those that do sell the stuff defend it more like a religious fanatic than of a technical argument. For those that might be dealers here.. Don't bash me. I didn't say anything bad about the oil itself. It might be fine...

Like most any product, there is usually no way that we can test all it's claims. So we base our buying decisions on the company marketing, ads, etc. Amsoil's marketing is pretty shoddy...

Jim
Dave
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Dave »

Several additives that contain the "proper" type of zinc are GM Oil Treatment and STP oil Treatment in the red bottle for 4 cylinder engines. There is a good thread on oil on the Apex Speed site.

Dave

PS Fleet Farm stores in the Minnesota -Wisconsin areas carry Amsoil (not that I use it)
hardingfv32-1
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

How do we know what the proper "zink" is? SAE study or paper? Gibbs Racing Oil SEEMS to have the 411 on the subject, but then their oil is $12 a qt. They tell a very thorough story.

Brian
Dave
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Dave »

flat tappet
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Joined: December 20th, 2008, 4:43 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by flat tappet »

Dave

Best article I've ever seen on oil and the proper oil for aircooled engines!

Thanks,

Bruce
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Exactly why are air cooled engines harder on oil? You don't think Porsche knows the right amount of air, fin count, etc. to cool their engines properly? The oil has to be at the correct temp on the cylinder walls to work properly.

I'm suspect of the basic premise of this oil article.

Brian
flat tappet
Posts: 80
Joined: December 20th, 2008, 4:43 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by flat tappet »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:Exactly why are air cooled engines harder on oil? You don't think Porsche knows the right amount of air, fin count, etc. to cool their engines properly? The oil has to be at the correct temp on the cylinder walls to work properly.

I'm suspect of the basic premise of this oil article.

Brian
Brian..I respect your opinion but that wasn't the only article that seems in favor of Brad Penn oil for VEE's. Check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php, go to search and type in Brad Penn
Matt King
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Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by Matt King »

Calling these engines air-cooled is somewhat of a misnomer. The cooling of a Porsche/VW/Harley-Davidson, etc. engine's internal parts is done as much by the oil circulating through it as the by the ambient air forced over, through or around it. This is true of a liquid-cooled engine to some extent as well, but the oil is responsible for less of the total work of cooling in a liquid-cooled engine. Also, most of these engines are producing far more power and heat than they were designed for, so that makes the oil's job even more critical.
pillowmeto
Posts: 103
Joined: January 5th, 2008, 12:54 am

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by pillowmeto »

The "Zinc" is really ZDDP (Zinc dithiophosphate). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP

The usefulness of it in motor oil is, roughly, that it is a monopolar molecule that will bond to Iron. The molecule is long, so when one end is bonded it provides a protective coating of the iron surface if the oil is removed, such as on a flat tappet camshaft, especially during break-in. The bond and molecule are capable of withstanding extreme pressures; and if the top layer of iron is removed more ZDDP will instantly bond to freshly uncovered iron if allowed to contact. This is why it can be a critical element to the break-in of many flat tappet cams, but is not required for roller tappet engines. I am having a hard time trying to dig up some of my previous reading on the subject, so for now I just leave a link to an article that will tell you all you want to know, for $31.50.
hardingfv32-1
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

I agree to the importance of ZDDP. There seems to be a standard amount of ZDDP in all of the RACING oils. It could be that most racing oils will work fine, but maybe it is the name recognition issue for me, I just don't see anything special with Brad Penn. Note, I don't think Brad Penn oil is fully synthetic if that matters.

I don't care if it OEM, racing, water or air cooled, you want the correct oil temp/viscocity delivered to the bearings and cylinders. If the oil is required to remove heat after it is used what is the deference. The cooling system is the issue when you increase power/heat.

Brian
flat tappet
Posts: 80
Joined: December 20th, 2008, 4:43 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by flat tappet »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:I agree to the importance of ZDDP. There seems to be a standard amount of ZDDP in all of the RACING oils. It could be that most racing oils will work fine, but maybe it is the name recognition issue for me, I just don't see anything special with Brad Penn. Note, I don't think Brad Penn oil is fully synthetic if that matters.

I don't care if it OEM, racing, water or air cooled, you want the correct oil temp/viscocity delivered to the bearings and cylinders. If the oil is required to remove heat after it is used what is the deference. The cooling system is the issue when you increase power/heat.

Brian
A wise man wrote this! Not a word out of truth. As Brian says as long as the oil gets the job done. We all have our own favorite.
brian
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Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by brian »

All air cooled motors suffer from the same problem. Heat distribution. There are zones in the motor who's temperature vary considerably. Just a nature of the beast. In liquid cooled motors the heat is carried to the cooler areas to reduce this problem. Cylinder bore consistancy and cylinder head hot zones are just a couple of examples. The back cylinder of a Harley is much hotter than the front, The old triples fried the center cylinder because the front wheel blocked the air. Now that most bikes are liquid cooled it 's much less of a problem. Oil comes in contact with super hot zones that cause breakdown. Historically, we dealt with the problem with higher viscosity, now we use synthetic oil. The problem hasn't gone away, we're just dealing with the symtoms. The next time you have a valve cover off, look at the area at the base of any of the exhaust valve spring and you'll see the burning on of the oil. Compare the front exhaust area to the back of the head and you'll see a difference as well.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
John Deonarine
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Joined: November 5th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Re: What oil and weight for summer in New England?

Post by John Deonarine »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:Is Amsoil for real? I always thought of it as a Ponzi sales scheme.

Brian

If you have any specific questions regarding the marketing of Amsoil, please PM.

John
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