January Minutes

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Dietmar
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January Minutes

Post by Dietmar »

The FV Ad Hoc Committee met on January 7
Members attending: Steve Oseth, Stevan Davis, John Petillo, Stephen Saslow, Phil Holcomb, Alex Bertolucci, Bruce Livermore, Dietmar Bauerle
Steve Oseth reported on his trip to the PRI Show and his discussions with piston manufacturers. Having spoken with several firms, the results were not entirely positive with regards to cost. Most quoted numbers in the 100-145 dollar range per piston. However, if one considers that forged pistons should be more durable and show less wear than cast, and that they should need minimal "race preparation", the cost might not be considered prohibitive by some. Steve did finally make contact with one manufacturer from the west coast who has been in the business for many years. They are in the process of coming up with some new tooling and asked that we contact them in a few weeks. They seemed to indicate that a cost of $50-70 per unit would not be unreasonable.
We have not totally given up on AA as a source for pistons and cylinders together. Cylinders would be considerably more difficult to have custom built for us than pistons, and AA has already modified their cylinders to meet our specs. We are anxiously awaiting a sample of an improved design piston from China which we hope will meet our needs. Also, with the Euro at a lower level, we once again discussed the pistons still available through K/S. Unfortunately, the problem still remains that we cannot find enough engine builders with an interest in purchasing pistons only who will commit to an order large enough to make it cost effective. The Committee will continue addressing the need for pistons/cylinders in the weeks to come.

Locating Arms: Trying to modify the BODYWORK rule to "grandfather in" bodywork on the rear suspension continues to be a work in progress. With a majority of the Committee in favor of this approach, the Committee was set to adopt a recommendation and pass it on to the CRB until we found a small glitch in the proposal. Wanting to address the needs of all the membership, we will continue to modify the proposal to develop a sound rule which will be presented for approval .

Stevan Davis mentioned that although he was successful in working with various regions to have FV only races last year, he has not met with the same success so far this year. He continues to seek appropriate avenues and welcomes suggestions and input.

No other items were presented or discussed.
Next meeting scheduled for February 4
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: January Minutes

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Dietmar wrote: However, if one considers that forged pistons should be more durable and show less wear than cast, and that they should need minimal "race preparation", the cost might not be considered prohibitive by some.

Also, with the Euro at a lower level, we once again discussed the pistons still available through K/S.
1) Forged piston durability is not relavent. Depending on the alloy of aluminum used for both the stock and forged examples, wears should be about the same. Certainly not relevant over the short life of a race engine.

2) That true issue is that the cylinder ID becomes too large with multiple honing of the cylinders. The piston to cylinder wall clearance grows too large causing the piston to rock and create poor ring sealing.

A well designed cylinder hone application is worth as much power as the latest intake manifolds. These performance hone applications lose their effectiveness in a short period of time. Since they are a precise application of a coarse stone and then a plateau hone, you must start over each time you hone. This is what uses up the cylinders.

Purchase of stock K/S pistons is of absolutely no value. This is the reason no good engine builder would be interested in them.

Brian
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: January Minutes

Post by sharplikestump »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:
Dietmar wrote: However, if one considers that forged pistons should be more durable and show less wear than cast, and that they should need minimal "race preparation", the cost might not be considered prohibitive by some.

Also, with the Euro at a lower level, we once again discussed the pistons still available through K/S.
1) Forged piston durability is not relavent. Depending on the alloy of aluminum used for both the stock and forged examples, wears should be about the same. Certainly not relevant over the short life of a race engine.

2) That true issue is that the cylinder ID becomes too large with multiple honing of the cylinders. The piston to cylinder wall clearance grows too large causing the piston to rock and create poor ring sealing.

A well designed cylinder hone application is worth as much power as the latest intake manifolds. These performance hone applications lose their effectiveness in a short period of time. Since they are a precise application of a coarse stone and then a plateau hone, you must start over each time you hone. This is what uses up the cylinders.

Purchase of stock K/S pistons is of absolutely no value. This is the reason no good engine builder would be interested in them.

Brian
Brian,
Please explain why you see no value in the K/S pistons. Is it because of their stock size, or is it for some other reason? If it is the former, what if you combine that piston with a new dimension cyl. of another brand?
Also, I am interested in how the committee feels about knurling pistons to regain ideal piston/cyl. clearance in a larger cyl. Thanks.
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: January Minutes

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

1) Because of their stock size. You could use the K/S piston in Chinese cylinders if you want. What is the cost of the K/S pistons and is the combination with the Chinese cylinders cheaper than $400 forged pistons and used cylinders?

Who is going to wholesale the K/S pistons? For that matter, who is available to wholesale/distribute any FV exclusive parts at this time?? The forged pistons are purchased directly from the manufacture?

2) Knurling… are you building a dune buggy or race engine? Can you show an example of a race engine or even street engine rebuilder using knurling?

Brian
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: January Minutes

Post by sharplikestump »

[quote="hardingfv32-1"]1) Because of their stock size. You could use the K/S piston in Chinese cylinders if you want. What is the cost of the K/S pistons and is the combination with the Chinese cylinders cheaper than $400 forged pistons and used cylinders?

Understood. I was just wondering if you had something against the brand. Depending on the cost of the K/S pistons, I could probably get it done for under the $400, but as previously stated, I personally prefer the AA units, so it is not an issue for me, which also means that I spend $150 to $250 per set of pistons and cylinders, (delivered) depending on which cyl.s I go with.

Who is going to wholesale the K/S pistons? For that matter, who is available to wholesale/distribute any FV exclusive parts at this time?? The forged pistons are purchased directly from the manufacture?
No idea here. From what you have said, can I assume you would prefer the forged pistons made to a larger diameter to regain ideal P/L clearance? If so, do you know of any good rings made for .005 larger cylinders? I am always looking for them, with no success. Find em and I'll buy em.

Knurling… are you building a dune buggy or race engine? Can you show an example of a race engine or even street engine rebuilder using knurling?
Only one that I know of for sure........me. Did a ton of them for street, some for Porsche, both street and race, including Vic Skirmantz (several times E Prod. Natl. Champ), and Vees.
Last time that one was successful?, (as in, winning a Majors)........umm, let's see......that would be this last weekend (as well as the weekend before that). If new lap records count for anything, you can throw in a couple of them as well. (Thanks for asking).
Additionally, I have knurled them for other builders.

Mike P.
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: January Minutes

Post by sharplikestump »

Dietmar wrote:The FV Ad Hoc Committee met on January 7
Members attending: Steve Oseth, Stevan Davis, John Petillo, Stephen Saslow, Phil Holcomb, Alex Bertolucci, Bruce Livermore, Dietmar Bauerle
Steve Oseth reported on his trip to the PRI Show and his discussions with piston manufacturers. Having spoken with several firms, the results were not entirely positive with regards to cost. Most quoted numbers in the 100-145 dollar range per piston. However, if one considers that forged pistons should be more durable and show less wear than cast, and that they should need minimal "race preparation", the cost might not be considered prohibitive by some. Steve did finally make contact with one manufacturer from the west coast who has been in the business for many years. They are in the process of coming up with some new tooling and asked that we contact them in a few weeks. They seemed to indicate that a cost of $50-70 per unit would not be unreasonable.
We have not totally given up on AA as a source for pistons and cylinders together. Cylinders would be considerably more difficult to have custom built for us than pistons, and AA has already modified their cylinders to meet our specs. We are anxiously awaiting a sample of an improved design piston from China which we hope will meet our needs. Also, with the Euro at a lower level, we once again discussed the pistons still available through K/S. Unfortunately, the problem still remains that we cannot find enough engine builders with an interest in purchasing pistons only who will commit to an order large enough to make it cost effective. The Committee will continue addressing the need for pistons/cylinders in the weeks to come.

Locating Arms: Trying to modify the BODYWORK rule to "grandfather in" bodywork on the rear suspension continues to be a work in progress. With a majority of the Committee in favor of this approach, the Committee was set to adopt a recommendation and pass it on to the CRB until we found a small glitch in the proposal. Wanting to address the needs of all the membership, we will continue to modify the proposal to develop a sound rule which will be presented for approval .

Stevan Davis mentioned that although he was successful in working with various regions to have FV only races last year, he has not met with the same success so far this year. He continues to seek appropriate avenues and welcomes suggestions and input.

No other items were presented or discussed.
Next meeting scheduled for February 4

Dietmar and all other interested parties,
Fred has purchased a set of the new style AA pistons and cylinders from me, and it might be of benefit to the group if you were to ask and publish his opinion on them.
Thank you for your efforts. Mike P.
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