August Minutes

Bill_Bonow
Posts: 301
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:53 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by Bill_Bonow »

OK, I'll agree that simply mounting a prepped beam takes 10 minutes (LP or BJ). Four bolts (in most applications) and it's mounted. What happens next is so vary dependent on the individual. So I hope it's agreeable that at record pace it could take 10 minutes and from that point, it could go as long as MV wishes to make it (100+ hours, maybe more).

I think you'll agree that there are many level of preparation and that any attempted establishment of a specific time/money to such a project is a complete waste of time. There are just too many variables.

Just for informational purposes, I think BJ beams on FV is the wrong way to go as well. Keep the cars the same or convert. The concept of a FrankenVee is not going to help anything. The real goal should be to work together and build the race group.
Bill Bonow
" I love Formula Vees, they're delicious!"
fvracer27
Posts: 247
Joined: October 25th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by fvracer27 »

Bill_Bonow wrote:OK, I'll agree that simply mounting a prepped beam takes 10 minutes (LP or BJ). Four bolts (in most applications) and it's mounted. What happens next is so vary dependent on the individual. So I hope it's agreeable that at record pace it could take 10 minutes and from that point, it could go as long as MV wishes to make it (100+ hours, maybe more).

I think you'll agree that there are many level of preparation and that any attempted establishment of a specific time/money to such a project is a complete waste of time. There are just too many variables.

Just for informational purposes, I think BJ beams on FV is the wrong way to go as well. Keep the cars the same or convert. The concept of a FrankenVee is not going to help anything. The real goal should be to work together and build the race group.
I also agree we have 2 good class with enough differences for someone to make a choice.
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
SR Racing
Posts: 1209
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

brian wrote:Maybe BIll or JIm could estimate the total cost of conversion. In all this posting, no one has mentioned cost. I don't know what everything costs, but by the time you buy the brake components, a complete BJ front end and enough wheels to support your program,.
We have been selling the complete front beam rotor to rotor with brakes for about $1400 I believe. This includes the labor for the shock tower removal and capping. You can buy the parts from us or other VW shops and do it all yourself saving a few bucks. I can't estimate the time for different cars for mounting and any nose fiberglass work that may be required. Some cars can be done in a few hours, some more. Typically checking your geometry and drilling 2 holes mounts the beam. Due to the beam tube size at least some cutting of nose glass needs to be done. It COULD be a 4 hour change. One of the early Citations that was converted was run as a FV and FST on different weekends. He did the beam and engine change back and forth in 4 hours.

That being said, I am NOT for any FV change. However, IF the desire is to change to front discs, this is by far the best and cheapest way to do it long term. Any other "spec'ed" change (non-VW) ties you into a single vendor with possible long term parts issues. (Plus not having the advantage of being race tested for several years.)
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by brian »

Thanks Jim your quote saved me some time. Add at least $300 per set of wheels and another $300 for a rear kit and you're looking at a $2000 buy in plus miscellaneous stuff that always adds up on my projects. Want extra rims for rains and qualies? add $300 to $400 a set. While I recognize there are some concerns about the wide 5 conversion strength, retaining the link pin front end and 5 lug wheels cuts the cost in half and does not require any drilling and body mods.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
SR Racing
Posts: 1209
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

brian wrote:Thanks Jim your quote saved me some time. Add at least $300 per set of wheels and another $300 for a rear kit and you're looking at a $2000 buy in plus miscellaneous stuff that always adds up on my projects. Want extra rims for rains and qualies? add $300 to $400 a set. While I recognize there are some concerns about the wide 5 conversion strength, retaining the link pin front end and 5 lug wheels cuts the cost in half and does not require any drilling and body mods.
Yep.. So don't do it, (or even approve it.) FV as is has a few years left. When the time is right, convert to FST. (Or retire.)
SR Racing
Posts: 1209
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

problemchild wrote:[
In typical "conflict of interest" FV/FST fashion, this partial conversion proposal discussion is getting muddied because people who would be politically and conceptually opposed to this proposal, are now seeing the potential for selling parts for it, based on their FST experience and capability to supply parts. Right or wrong, my opinions are totally independant of any commercial interests.
Since I am opposed to the FV change and make more revenue on Link Pin stuff, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?
If you were referring to some other supplier (who I haven't seen posting), I can't speak for them.
And, to this point I agree with most of your opinions re: this change. So could you clarify your statement? Who are these disgusting vendors trying to take some advantage here?
jim_oseth
Posts: 3
Joined: January 30th, 2008, 1:54 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by jim_oseth »

Steve

[/quote]You may also notice that there is NO PROVISION (as yet) for LP disc brake conversions. This is really because we have no information on how likely they might be to BREAK in our application and don't want to start a melee of senseless CRASHES. The VW BJ beam is a proven commodity. A small step for man ....[quote]

Steve -- Hypothetically lets assume that the disk brake conversion turns out to be a better solution than the link pin/drum brake configuration we have come to love so dearly. There will inevitably be cars that are unsuited for the ball joint beam conversion. I have a car (George Fizell's old Zink Z12) that has the beam welded to the frame by original design and a ball joint conversion is out of the question. You implied that the link pin disk break kits available are dangerous. Do have empirical information that these are unsafe?

I looked around on the CIP website and found what looks to be a fairly good solution. I would be surprised if I have the only car in the country that couldn't accept the ball joint beam. Please take a look at the disk brake kit I'm referring to in the link below and let me know your thoughts...thanks jimo

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.as ... C-C10-4120
tiagosantos
Posts: 391
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: August Minutes

Post by tiagosantos »

Jim, the main problem I can see with that kit is where it says it spaces the wheels out by 1-1/2".. Our spindles are fragile enough as it is, with the increased weight from the rotors/calipers and the longer leverage, I'd be pretty worried. Then again, that's what the spindle savers are for, but it'd be hard to guarantee that they'd be safe.
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1168
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: August Minutes

Post by FV80 »

Jim,
Sorry .. been on the road.
The kit that you referenced seems to be the same kit that I personally BOUGHT, back in .. what .. ?? 04? Put it on my car, and tested it.. all at my own expense.. and it seemed acceptable. We (the Committee) proposed at that time, to allow it (with a weight penalty) in FV, but it was SHOT DOWN solidly by those that sent in responses to the CRB Request for Member Input.

Here we are now, quite some years later. FST has come into being and the Committee continues to explore options for the preservative future of the class. At THIS point, it seems that "a step" needs to be taken. Further, FST has proven that the BJ beam assembly WILL tolerate the racing loads that we encounter and it also would address torsion arm, spindle, wheel, and beam availability at the same time.

We are not proposing that LP conversion kits will never be allowed, but are trying to take a small step toward the future to allow something that a number of people seem to want, while trying to ensure that it does NOT become a "must have" conversion to remain competitive. At some point in the future we will begin to look more closely at just what advantages might come from such a conversion and what restrictions might be implemented or reduced as a result; but for the moment, we just want to have an option for those that prefer .. or seemingly DEMAND disc brakes - but not to the point that allows it to "rule the roost" so to speak.

Input is welcome. There are several out there that are considering LP conversions and what that might mean to the class. We will continue to look at all "well thought out and presented" options for anything along these lines with regards to ANYTHING that can help to support the FV class into the future. There are several on these boards promoting the "convert to FST or DIE" concept, and that may yet become the future of FV... But the Committee is looking at ALL options that we can find. A total conversion to FST is an expensive option. We are trying to come up with a more palatable process, though we do not yet have all the answers.

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
To sign up in the FV Registry for updates about SCCA Formula Vee, please send me an email or PM with your name, location (city/state), make/model of car, phone # and any other appropriate info.
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by smsazzy »

I would also add, the committee was requested to look into this based on a letter that was written.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
joekarter
Posts: 7
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 12:30 pm

Re: August Minutes

Post by joekarter »

I really don't know a whole lot about it, but has anyone looked at these:

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/JAMAR-Fron ... 00comb.htm

Looks like they would bolt right on, use the same wheels we already have and the cost is not bad. Made in the US is a plus too...

Ok, I will retreat to the shadows now :oops:
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