July Minutes

Dietmar
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July Minutes

Post by Dietmar »

The FV Ad Hoc Committee met on July 24

Members attending: Steve Oseth, Stevan Davis, John Petillo, Alex Bertolucci, Philip Holcomb, Stephen Saslow, Dietmar Bauerle
Guest: Fred Clark

The long anticipated bad news was received today from K/S informing us that they will no longer be supplying cylinders for the 1200 series VW. We were not totally surprised by this news, but we had hoped that they would be able to make at least one more run for us. We will contact K/S to see if pistons and rings are still available, and at the same time ask if they would give us the name of their source for barrels as they(K/S) have not manufactured them for several years themselves. We can only hope.

On the same vein, a Committee member has made contact with someone in Australia who has dealings with AA- the Chinese piston manufacturer. One of the issues with the Chinese cylinders is the narrow shoulder on the barrel that fits against the engine case. If this shoulder were made wider ( as in the original VW and aftermarket cylinders), then that would solve one of the problems inherent with the AA set. The other is the number and width of the cooling fins. The AA barrels are somewhat like the early cylinders in that they have thicker yet fewer cooling fins. These two items will be presented to the Chinese manufacturer in the next week to see if anything can be done.

In the meantime, an engine builder is experimenting with a chrome coating on the barrels to see if this would be an option to save barrels that are currently oversize or out of round. A Committee member has also approached a US manufacturer to check on the feasibility of making billet cylinders. The cost might be higher than what we currently have experienced, but cylinders are scarce in stock form unless one uses the Chinese replacements.

Disc brakes: the discussion continues.
The FSR Committee was apprised of our initial discussion of allowing ball joint beams and disc brakes in FV as a way to address the concerns of future parts availability and also for those who wish to begin an inevitable conversion to some form of common class that is VW based. Parts availability is one of the reasons for the Committee’s recommendation, however , it is also felt by the Committee that it is time to start the discussion of an eventual merger of the two classes. A question of “parity” also arose and the Committee agreed that there will need to be some form of compromise to try to get both classes closer in performance and this will be a point of discussion before any definite steps are taken .

At present, the Committee sees the possibility of using the ball joint beam, disc brakes, and 4 bolt VW wheels, HOWEVER, before continuing and spending time on an issue that may or may not be accepted by the membership, we will be formulating our recommendation to the SCCA for member input. Based on the responses, the Committee will then either continue to pursue the implementation of the ball joint beam and disc brakes, considering some or all of the recommendations received, or drop the matter (again).

Additionally, we would like feedback sent directly to any member of the Committee on the attitude of moving to a modern alternative power plant. This would likely be a water cooled powerplant requiring significant conversion effort, not unlike the recent Honda conversion in FF. The goal would be a detuned stock engine with equivalent horsepower to a current FV motor, but with a goal of 5+ seasons of competitive life. We are not looking to move down this path at this time, but would like to gauge member interest for future discussions.

In general, we suggest that you send your feedback or thoughts on any issue directly to any of the Committee members.

No other items were presented or discussed.

Next meeting scheduled for August 28
SR Racing
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Re: July Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

I have sent my input to Stevan, but so it is all out there :

I suggested a single jump from FV to the complete FST package. It takes the cars to a package that is inexpensive, tested for 10 years, with parts available from multiple suppliers, and a dozen engine builders. Any partial conversion will take you through a host of single suppliers, unique parts and no guarantee of ongoing supplies.

No parity can be achieved between a 1200cc and 1600cc engine. The Torque and HP curves are completely out of phase. At best you could get comparable lap times on a single track.

A partial conversion of LP/BJ beam with discs, etc. will mess with weight issues, etc. and more rework for later changes.

A modern water cooled engine is just about out of the question, without MASSIVE changes. Radiator(s), FI/ECU's, alternators, reburnt ECU chip mapping, trans. and more.

My suggestion is to have a complete FV to FST package conversion with a 3 - 5 year date in stone.

How many of the current FV drivers will still be driving in 5 years? In 5 years what good parts at decent prices will be available for the current FV?
hardingfv32-1
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Re: July Minutes

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

SR Racing wrote: How many of the current FV drivers will still be driving in 5 years? In 5 years what good parts at decent prices will be available for the current FV?
This is the heart of the issue. On the West Coast, with the current rate of decline, there could be no viable FV class in SCCA in five years. In five years the current or semi current West Coast FV competitors: 50% simply will have retired, 25% not be able to afford the transition and 25% to make the transition into a class that will be grouped with all formula cars.

That said you are going to have a hard time convincing the majority that a change is to their benefit.

Brian
MarkP-2
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Re: July Minutes

Post by MarkP-2 »

If it's done, and that's a BIG if, then we would have to jump in with BOTH feet and not just stick a toe in etc....It's not an expense that I
would like doing again (ran FST in 06-08'), but if it saves the class and leads to younger entrants thus growing the fields, I would vote yes.

Mark

92' Protoform P-1
01 Citation
fvracer27
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Re: July Minutes

Post by fvracer27 »

Mark

You ran FST 06-08 did you run FV before and did you go back to FV

What were the reasons you switched and or switched back?
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
problemchild
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Re: July Minutes

Post by problemchild »

fvracer27 wrote:
You ran FST 06-08 did you run FV before and did you go back to FV

What were the reasons you switched and or switched back?
I ran FST and returned to FV. The FST rule package was awesome but the growth was too slow for me. I found a class that I could run for $500 per weekend, but I was spending $1000s to travel to events with enough cars to have decent racing with. Of the people that I know who have left FST, most could not afford to race anyway, or did not fit into the group socially. Perhaps there are some, but I know of no-one who left because they did not like the rule package.

Its all Vee racing! Other than perhaps a common 13" spec tire, with unique 13X6 wheels for each class, leave the rules alone. As people convert from FV to FST, the FV part supply issues take care of themselves. FV fades away while FST grows. No forced changes or deadlines. Just a natural progression, with everyone on their own schedule. As I have said, dozens of times, the best conversion time is after a big crash or engine failure.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
problemchild
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Re: July Minutes

Post by problemchild »

Lots of talk on the other forum about promotion.
FST has a marketable product suitable for promotion. I call it " the most affordable formula car class on the planet".
If FV is to be promoted, it needs to be fixed. Spec tires and rules that keep out cheater parts like manifolds, wheel covers, and whatever is next, out.
Unless FV gets fixed, put all promotion activities into attracting new people into the race group, via FST.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
MarkP-2
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Re: July Minutes

Post by MarkP-2 »

Mark,

I returned to FV because several friends who were going to convert to FST either didn't or moved away, leaving
me with few if any other FST's to race with unless I wanted to travel. I didn't see the point of traveling since I
had three tracks within two hours of my home and there was an ave. to strong field of vee's in the area at the
time. In addition, many FST's had engine troubles that were later solved by dry-sumping, but by then I had already
made the decision to return to vee's. I do plan to return someday to FST's, but that is currently many years away
since my son is now racing his own vee and I don't have time nor space to maintain three cars at the moment. I
wish the best for both classes and hope they can either both grow seperate or merge in the future. We should
treat each other as valued co-competitors instead of enemies.

Mark

92' Protoform P-1
02' Citation
FVartist42
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Re: July Minutes

Post by FVartist42 »

I've been involved in FV since '83 and have heard of the soon demise of the class every year. The reasons have not changed. This thought of converting to fst was why fst was developed. Why would FV a class that is everywhere in the country want to down size to a class that has limited representation in most of the country? It is not logical.
SR Racing
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Re: July Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

FVartist42 wrote: Why would FV a class that is everywhere in the country want to down size to a class that has limited representation in most of the country? It is not logical.
Good point. And that is why there are few FST's in other parts of the country. But NOT the case in this area. So if you want to run on the west coast, or Florida, or the East coast, FST may not be the right choice for you (at this time.) But in the last 2 months, 3 new FST's have joined the center of the country. And there must be activity in other parts since we (SR) have sold many conversion item parts to several customers in the last 6 months. I suspect there are a few in garages waiting for their debut.
problemchild
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Re: July Minutes

Post by problemchild »

FVartist42 wrote:I've been involved in FV since '83 and have heard of the soon demise of the class every year. The reasons have not changed. This thought of converting to fst was why fst was developed. Why would FV a class that is everywhere in the country want to down size to a class that has limited representation in most of the country? It is not logical.
If you don't want to convert, don't, but your arguments are certainly not logical.

People upgrade to newer and better products all the time. The newer products typically have a much smaller market share than the older products they replace. According to your logic, you should be running a Formcar with splitcase tranny and 36 hp engine. You could listen to your 78 rpm records, play pong, watch silent black/white movies, talk on a phone nailed to the wall, and do your artistry with paint that you created by crushing and mixing berries of different colors together. If you were logical, you would not own a race car!!!!!!!!!

People keep and cherish their old stuff because they like it .... not because it is logical. They also do not expect other people, particularily younger folk, to understand or buy in.
Last edited by problemchild on August 6th, 2013, 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
smsazzy
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Re: July Minutes

Post by smsazzy »

What's wrong with ping pong? :-)
Stephen Saslow
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Re: July Minutes

Post by FV80 »

smsazzy wrote:What's wrong with ping pong? :-)
Not 'Ping Pong'.. just 'PONG'... you're probably too young to know :mrgreen: (possibly the FIRST 'arcade game to be duplicated (more or less) on a 'home computer' .. attached to your TV .. WAY before there were really any "HOME COMPUTERS")
Steve, FV80
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sharplikestump
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Re: July Minutes

Post by sharplikestump »

I am a firm believer in the free market. While the cost of Vee parts has risen, and availability of Vee parts has diminished, look at the package deals that are currently listed. They are dirt cheap, and in some cases you can purchase a complete package for less than the cost of a conversion.
A couple of other points that I have not seen addressed here is that with the passing of time, many Vees become Vintage legal. I just sold a nationally competitive Sharland, which is legal for RMVR. While this occurs at a different pace in different regions, it does occur. How long before we see FSTs allowed.
The other: I don't know the exact number for each, but I believe the combined number of SCCA and Vintage Vees at the 50th. B'Day event were approx. 110 cars.
I also believe there were either 5 or 6 FSTs. That tell ya anything?
Mike P.
Last edited by sharplikestump on August 9th, 2013, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sharplikestump
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Re: July Minutes

Post by sharplikestump »

On the AA cyl. issue: Are we aware that there is an 800 # for AA, right here in CA? The man to talk to is Ron Barton, the owner of the company is Chinese, speaks it fluently, and may be a more direct contact. Even if he is just another voice asking for the same thing, I don't see where it can hurt our cause. I have to believe this could result in us eliminating one current or future scarcity while saving a bunch of money.
Mike P.
brian
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Re: July Minutes

Post by brian »

In the past week several vees were purchased and while one has been made available due to the driver's retirement, it is a hopefull sign that on the west coast things are still progressing.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jphoenix
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Re: July Minutes

Post by jphoenix »

sharplikestump wrote:I am a firm believer in the free market. While the cost of Vee parts has risen, and availability of Vee parts has diminished, look at the package deals that are currently listed. They are dirt cheap, and in some cases you can purchase a complete package for less than the cost of a conversion.
Mike P.
For a new racer like me, the availability of an entire package is a perfect solution. I looked at two complete race packages in the past week - and bought one. An incredible deal that Brian turned me on to - so now I'm ready for next season here in the PNW.

Jim
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
SR Racing
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Re: July Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

sharplikestump wrote:I also believe there were either 5 or 6 FSTs. That tell ya anything?
Mike P.
Mike, Not really. We have a independent FST/FFDA series championship. The BD party was not a points race for FST, so not many of the guys wanted to attend. Since there is a separate 12 race series for them. A Shame though 'cause it was a nice event.
tiagosantos
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Re: July Minutes

Post by tiagosantos »

I don't think the birthday party was a points event for anyone else.. :)
SR Racing
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Re: July Minutes

Post by SR Racing »

tiagosantos wrote:I don't think the birthday party was a points event for anyone else.. :)
You are missing the point. (no pun intended). :lol: The FST group does a 12 race series which ARE for points. The BD party was not one of them.
hardingfv32-1
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Re: July Minutes

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

brian wrote:....hopefull sign that on the west coast things are still progressing.
Progressing? You mean slowing the rapid decline of SCCA Regional FV racing? We have one (two?) new SCCA FV competitors in S Cal. that have done nothing to change the complexion of FV racing in S Cal. How long will they stay interested with only one or two other cars to race against at the Nat/Reg(Divisional?) level. They have shown no inclination to travel to the non S Cal. Major events.

Brian
hardingfv32-1
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Re: July Minutes

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

sharplikestump wrote:I am a firm believer in the free market. While the cost of Vee parts has risen, and availability of Vee parts has diminished, look at the package deals that are currently listed. They are dirt cheap, and in some cases you can purchase a complete package for less than the cost of a conversion.
A complete package can become useless if there is just one major part requiring replacement and it is not available. Is someone going to part out their car to provide that part? Assuming they an inactive competitor, are they going to even know that there is a need for that part or where to list it?

Brian
smsazzy
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Re: July Minutes

Post by smsazzy »

jphoenix wrote:
sharplikestump wrote:I am a firm believer in the free market. While the cost of Vee parts has risen, and availability of Vee parts has diminished, look at the package deals that are currently listed. They are dirt cheap, and in some cases you can purchase a complete package for less than the cost of a conversion.
Mike P.
For a new racer like me, the availability of an entire package is a perfect solution. I looked at two complete race packages in the past week - and bought one. An incredible deal that Brian turned me on to - so now I'm ready for next season here in the PNW.

Jim
What did you end up buying?
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
jphoenix
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Re: July Minutes

Post by jphoenix »

Hi Steve,

I bought Dave Schrady's Caracal C (in Monterey), complete kit including trailer and spares as he's retiring at the end of the season. I plan to do the ICSCC novice program with IRDC. I'll be flagging with IRDC, SOVREN and SCCA for the rest of the season, Trials at the Ridge in October with the Lotus, then pick up the Caracal after the 50th Thunderhill session at the end of October. Looking forward to driving a real race car... that is, well, a quite bit slower than the Esprit ;-)

Should be a blast!

Jim
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
smsazzy
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Re: July Minutes

Post by smsazzy »

Only slower on the straights. Probably beat the Lotus in a lap by 5-10 seconds. FV lap record at Seattle is 1:38.0. Try doing that in a Lotus. :-)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
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