Spec Tire Survey Results

[Bob Posner]

The new Goodyear is a great tire. If cost is the driver of a spec tire,both GY and Hoosier should be invited into competition. I've seen no difference in life of either aside from the Hoosier being able to withstand sliding and very aggresive use in an individual session better. This fact points out why a spec tire is not a good idea for those who feel that tire choice and management is part of the game.

[FVartist]

Greg Rice:

"Eliminate alternate tire suppliers (competition factor) ..... there is cost savings!"

Barry:

"I think you would get better pricing if you had two companies bidding against each other for the contract, say Goodyear and Hoosier, with whatever current compound picked."

I think it needs to be realized that whoever gets the contract, the other one is done with FV. Are you sure you want that?

Two differing trains of thought. I never got how a monopoly created cost savings, but the free market usually does.

Bruce

[BLS]

Bruce, to be fair, I think Greg is saying an end to tire development of tire companies pitted against each other would reduce the cost, not that there would no be competition for an exclusive contract. At least that is the way I read his opinion based on more than one comment.

I'm just afraid that once a contract is given, there will be no possibility of any future competition as those that do not have a contract are going to go away.

[Speedsport]

Whatever savings there might be in an exclusive supplier will probably go out the window when SCCA demands its fee for being the exclusive supplier. I'm sure there will be some who will say thats nonsense, but trust me....SCCA will demand a fee for a supplier to be exclusive to a class.

If this is such a great idea or even a possible idea, why isn't it being done in more classes? Don't they want to save money too????

[SR Racing]

I understand everyone's concerns about tire costs and longevity, but this single supplier thing is REALLY not a good idea. Someone will have to negotiate specs, the contract and maintain it. Who? And who pays them? I see a lot of other market problems with it. IF it DID fly, you have one (effectively) supplier. Do you think the remaining supplier will rush back in if it doesn't work out? FV tires are not a big gross for any supplier. We are lucky we have the ones we have.

and.. I really don't see the tire issue alone as the major issue to save or increase FV counts.

The vast majority of FV guys spend less than $3000 a year on tires. If you cut that in half (not likely) it still isn't something that will bring in the masses and will only slightly help those racing now. Most peoples travel, maintanance etc costs are double or triple that.

Good luck.

[fvracer27]

http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-19/b ... e-gasoline

This is our problem period

higher cost to travel
higher cost for shipping our tires/parts
everything is expensive now not like it was 10 years ago

worst part we can not do anything about it.

[problemchild]

The tire engineers are good. They'll build a tire that will be good in their first attempt and make minor refinements by production time.
Ongoing tire development programs would cease after the initial batch .... there is cost savings!
Eliminating tire sponsorships ..... there is cost savings!
Eliminate tire contingencies .... there is cost savings!
Eliminate alternate tire suppliers (competition factor) ..... there is cost savings!
Loss of volume VS increased market share ...... don't know but increased FV participation may make it a cost savings!
Decrease in tire price would be nice but the main cost savings to competitors will be reducing their tire usage requirements.
Any price decrease in the cost of tires is the bonus!
Are we supposed to feel sorry for the tire companies who have been selling more FV tires to FV racers for the last 30 yrs than anyone in FV wanted to buy? Remember the 90s when a LF tire would be trash in one session. I think the FV tire sales are overdue to level off. No FV driver should need to use more than 2 sets of tires in a season.

I remember in the 90's when tires were only good for a session. I seem to recall huge fields back then too. Kind of shoots down the premise that spec tire will save FV. But do the tire companies know about their ability to build a tire like you are asking for? I can't believe they've been keeping that technology from us for so long....it must be a conspiracy? The tire we have now works because it is almost too soft (Even the 55's) on the first heat cycle...which is why the remaining heat cycles are JUST AS FAST, IF NOT FASTER, then the sticker cycle. A harder compound tire will loose that effect, creating a sticker tire advantage, which will, in effect, make things much worse then they are today. Remember this post so IF (and a BIG IF!!!) we end up with a spec harder tire, and people start bitching about needing sticker tires to qualify at the front, you can look back and see there was at least one voice of reason.

Its amazing the logic that can be twisted around to support one's best intetrests. If the tires are so great now ... take the 55 hoosier for example ... then go to the engineer who manages that program and say "You do not have to beat Goodyear anymore. Please modify the compound and construction to improve the durability performance. You can sacrifice 1-2% of speed to improve durability". And you keep saying that he would probably screw up and produce a crappier tire. Nonsense!

Show some damn leadership! Volunteer to run protype "spec" tires next year. Work with the committee and tire companies to make sure that the FV community gets the tire it wants and needs!

[Speedsport]

Greg,

What logic is it that I'm twisting? I'm giving a very logical reason for caution against a tire you and Mark are imagining. You can't make a significantly harder compound tire and avoid a significant sticker cycle advantage. When that happens, IT WILL BECOME EVEN MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE NEW TIRES, increasing the burden on everyone.

Step up and show leadership? That's what I'm trying to do by avoiding taking our class down a path that can have serious consequences and possibly increase the financial requirements of all those involved. Until you can provide proof that such a holy grail of tires exisits, I stand by my view that what you are requesting is not possible and any attempt to force it on the class will hurt us all.

Jim's comments are spot on as well.

[P-2 Mark]

Mike,

I respect your attempt to direct us in the right direction and know that you, along with Greg, myself and most everyone
want the best for the class. That being said, what are the possible changes you feel will improve the class and get more
participation from those drivers who've parked their cars over the past several years?

Thanks!

Mark

[Matt King]

http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-19/b ... e-gasoline

This is our problem period.

I would agree with that. The last time I towed from Milwaukee to Mid-Ohio (back in late 2008) it cost me over $450 in fuel just for my tow vehicle. That was the third of three trips I made to M-O that season and it was the primary reason why I quit racing with NASA, sold my Mustang and bought a FV so I could race closer to home.

This debate about spec tires feel like Washington politicians arguing about earmark spending. We are drowning in debt and spending and they are quibbling over 5 percent of the budget.

[fvracer27]

Mike,

I respect your attempt to direct us in the right direction and know that you, along with Greg, myself and most everyone
want the best for the class. That being said, what are the possible changes you feel will improve the class and get more
participation from those drivers who've parked their cars over the past several years?

Thanks!

Mark

Why do you guys keep insisting it's the class that has cars parked?

You think if we change the class the cars that are sitting will just show up with the cost to travel just to get to the track cost as much as a set of tires?

It's not the class it's everything else.
Entry fees are 300 to 350 to be on track for 90 min a weekend that's almost $4 a min
Most people towing get 12 mpg at just about $4 a gal and they predict $5 a gal by the time race season starts here in the NE
For me as I'm sure most this is the biggest problem with racing
I'm fortunate I have a track almost in my back yard and it's still a struggle and I'm a average guy making average living.

[Speedsport]

Mike,
I respect your attempt to direct us in the right direction and know that you, along with Greg, myself and most everyone
want the best for the class. That being said, what are the possible changes you feel will improve the class and get more
participation from those drivers who've parked their cars over the past several years?
Thanks!
Mark

I wish I had an easy answer for that. I think trying to make racing cheaper via class rules is almost impossible and probably a misguided effort. I don't see the amount of savings that can be expected from adusting class rules as anything more then allowing the guy running 3-4 races a year maybe one more race...not enought to have an impact on our numbers and certainly not enough to bring anyone out of retirement. There is a deeper cause for the decline in SCCA's (as a whole, not just FV) numbers. Part of it could be the general elevation of racing that has taken place and the perception of what is needed...like fancy trailers and motorhomes, so that people just aren't motivated because they feel it's not right to show up with a open trialer and a van. But it comes down to there are too many distractions to compete for a shrinking amount of disposable income. The way to get numbers back is to find those who still have enough disposable income and provide a quality product for them. In other words, race weekends that are fun without the aggrivation of such things like 10 classes in a run group.

I would like to see more rental cars avaible to aid those who just don't have the abilty to maintain their own car. Is that a market that just isn't there or is the demand not there for the market? I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure if I get my other Speedsport chassis finished I could rent it out.

SCCA is making an effort with their majors program. FV is in a good spot for that right now. I encourage everyone with a FV to take advantage of the Major's events. That can be a saving grace for our class. If we can pool our numbers together at the majors events, we will look strong and the momentum will return. Good racing at those will spur others to join, and so on.

[P-2 Mark]

Matt:

You're correct about the gas situation, and I'm afraid it's heading above $4.00 per gal. based on the news reports. That along with
other issue's will prevent additional drivers from racing as much as they would prefer. I'm spoiled because I have 3 tracks within
90 miles of my home (Nelson, M-O, and Beaverun) so I don't have to spend as much as others to travel. I would like to run at the
Glen National this July and maybe Summit Pt., but if it's going to cost me $300-400 in fuel expenses, then I'll stay closer to home.

Mark

[fvracer27]

Matt:

You're correct about the gas situation, and I'm afraid it's heading above $4.00 per gal. based on the news reports. That along with
other issue's will prevent additional drivers from racing as much as they would prefer. I'm spoiled because I have 3 tracks within
90 miles of my home (Nelson, M-O, and Beaverun) so I don't have to spend as much as others to travel. I would like to run at the
Glen National this July and maybe Summit Pt., but if it's going to cost me $300-400 in fuel expenses, then I'll stay closer to home.

Mark

Who is Matt?

unfortunatly $300 to $400 in fuel expense just to get to the track is what most of the race are dealing with and they don't have the option to stay closer to home.

[P-2 Mark]

Mark:

Matt King!!!! He posts on several websites!

[fvracer27]

Mark:

Matt King!!!! He posts on several websites!

sorry I thought you were talking to me

[P-2 Mark]

Not this time Mark! Hey, nice name by the way!

Thanks!

Mark

P.S.: Didn't you race at Nelson Ledges several years ago?

[fvracer27]

Not this time Mark! Hey, nice name by the way!

Thanks!

Mark

P.S.: Didn't you race at Nelson Ledges several years ago?

Not me it cost to much to get there

[GT6]

Guys, let's keep this thread focused. We are talking about whether a spec. tire would be beneficial for the class. This question could be looked at from many perspectives, but two of them are; Would it make life easier, racing more attractive, or racing more even for existing competitors? Or, would it make the class or racing in general more attractive for perspective racers?


There are many expense categories in racing and if you want to start talking about potential changes in another category please start another thread.

We have identified tires as being a category of which we could effect real change and comparing this change's influence to other categories (many of which are completely out of our control) does NOT negate the potential benefit of this one area.

Let's keep driving to a conclusion about spec. tires and put the matter to bed.

Some pretty experienced guys seem to think a spec. tire would be a bad thing. Experience count's for a lot in my book.

I think it could be a pretty simple thing and make my life easier and racing more fun. I also think that if I were looking at the class, a spec. tire would make it more attractive to me. At least an illusion of one thing that I didn't have to worry about to be on an equal footing with my competitors.
BUT, I have never tried to make a spec. tire work and can't see all the downsides.

[Matt King]

Too many M names. Can't keep them all straight. I use my real name on all the sites so I can remember who I am!

I agree with Mike's post. There are bigger issues affecting club racing than we can or should try to address with changes to FV. The best we can do is to promote our class better within the context of what the SCCA has to offer. I'm divided on the spec tire issue because it appears the majority is in favor of a different type of tire than I would personally choose. I would rather see us on a tire similar to F1200 in Canada, but I don't expect that solution to be adopted here in the US because it is too big of a change all at once. Beyond that, we have a class that has been pretty stable for almost 50 years and will be around for plenty more. It's up to the club's leadership and all of us as members to work on the bigger picture issues that are within our control, but realizing that there are very significant barriers to entry and we will most likely never see a return to the participation levels of the past.

[SR Racing]

I would like to see more rental cars avaible to aid those who just don't have the abilty to maintain their own car. Is that a market that just isn't there or is the demand not there for the market? I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure if I get my other Speedsport chassis finished I could rent it out.

Mike we have rented Vees for 10 years. I think I have rented out about maybe 30 races in all those years and it was usually one car. Figure out your costs + a small profit margin, wear and tear on the car and tires and you are easily over $1000 to break even for one event. If you have 2 or 3 renters at an event it makes some sense.

A newby comes and wants to rent a Vee and his costs will be ~$1800 + for the weekend minimum. (rental plus his own entry fee and his travel) And he needs to make a $5000 + refundable deposit. Tough to find a newby who will consider that. We now rent FST but usually have 2-3 rented for each event, so our fixed costs are lower. But you are still talking a lot of money. You and I know that that price isn't terrible if someone really looked at what he was spending to race his own Vee and amorized his car, trailer, storage, rebuilds, etc. However when a get a call from someone to rent they are shocked at how much it costs for a weekend.

AGAIN, there NOTHING that can be done to save anyone much money overall in racing. To increase fields it will require promotion, a key series, or something like that. Then you can get those people that CAN afford it to participate. The tire issue is a nit. AND.. I think you will have as much chance of getting real reduced costs by going to the tracks, fuel suppliers, SCCA, resturants and Motels and telling them you want a special contract deal for FV.. Best of luck, but this is not going to happen. At least not in any way you will want. IMO of course.

In FST we have closely watched all our costs. EVERY part on the car is cheaper and lasts longer. (tires up to a 10 race season, engines 2 seasons, and all the maintenance stuff is cheaper). But guess what? A racing weekend is still more expensive than most all can imagine or afford. Tires issues are waving at windmills.

[FVartist]

I have rented my car a few times and even offered it free to some, all they had to do was supply tires, fuel, entry fee, maintain it themselves at the track and pay for damages. I did the towing to and from. It is not a money maker, but I did it to get more racers out. The response from most has been they just could not afford it. This all with a spec tire program in effect.

Bruce

[craigs]

Can we just start the process with the step of making the Hoosier 55 the spec. tire for FV?

I think this is a good starting advantage in and of itself, but to go beyond, we could use our collective bargaining power and firm stance of support for a supplier to negotiate for a lower price. $100 or $200 off on a set would be very substantial at least in terms of tire budgets for guys who buy 2-3 sets a season. That's equal to one more race entry a season.

I agree, IF we can get a deal like SM did. If we can get a substantial savings locked in over a period of years then I fully support a spec R55. The issue is - what does Hoosier have to gain out of the deal - they own the FV market right now at the current price point. What incentive do they have to reduce price 10 plus percent?

Goodyear may be a different story though - they have a much smaller piece of the pie. They could have some incentive to reduce their pricing to gain market share. Could we live with a spec 430 at a 10% discount, 20%, or 30%?

It will be a tough cost negotiation with the tire suppliers and SCCA.

Good luck guys.

Craig

[hojo]

- ask the tire makers to produce a compound that gets better with age.

- the toyo RA-1 ran its best laps on cord and so do the falken's the 1200's run, how is it that street DOT R compounds can do this and the current slick used in vee does not?
everyone knows how awful the toyo R888 were and look at what happened the RA-1 came back. people shave these things down to get to the sweet spot, which isnt much in terms of laptime. (1200 has an agreement not to shave falkens)

due to the lack of choice to fit the current rims GY and HOO in my opinion have you by the nards, you might as well call it a monopoly. it's not a true open market when choice is that limited.

that being said as other people have mentioned and given what i just said above, I can not see why any of the current 2 tire manufacturers would listen to any overtures for a longer lasting tire, the "whats in it for them" arguement would have to be very compelling.

- If hoosier currently dominates the bulk of sales there really isnt much incentive for them to lower the cost to gain the extra money back in increased sales by being the spec. thats a pipedream... Goodyear mmmaybe?? since i think their current marketshare is smaller? people advocating for this sounds like they clearly have never been in business...
however, if a manufacturer not currently involved in vee tire production was open to developing a tire under the guidelines (performance/cost per set/durability/dimensions) set by the committee or vee community and gain 100% of that market share, that might be doable from a business standpoint for a manufacturer. but they better hit the mark quite quickly or your development costs go up impacting cost per set.

you have to put it out to tender and see if there's a response. thats what F1 did and ended up with Pirelli.
and if scca wants a cut, that's just wrong...JMHO they shouldn't get your potential savings.

[craigs]

- ask the tire makers to produce a compound that gets better with age.

- the toyo RA-1 ran its best laps on cord and so do the falken's the 1200's run, how is it that street DOT R compounds can do this and the current slick used in vee does not?
everyone knows how awful the toyo R888 were and look at what happened the RA-1 came back. people shave these things down to get to the sweet spot, which isnt much in terms of laptime. (1200 has an agreement not to shave falkens)

And where are all the RA-1s this year with the SCCA? Also, agreements will not work in the SCCA drivers.