Spec Tire Survey Results

smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by smsazzy »

In an effort to consolidate the conversation, please post responses to the survey in this thread. That will make it easier for us all to follow the conversation as opposed to spreading the discussion across multiple forum and chat boards. Thank you to all who responded with input.

Overall Responses:
Would you support a spec tire?
195: Yes (77% of all)
55: No (22% of all)
2: Blank (1%)
Respondents – 252

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
175: Run a specifically designed slick (70% of all)
33: Change to a wider tire, similar to FST (13% of all)
20: Run a treaded hard tire, similar to a vintage tire (8% of all)
15: Move to a DOT Tire (6% of all)
9: Blank (3%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
33: I would race anyway (60%)
20: I would race less or quit FV (36% of NO to Spec Tire – 8% of all respondents)
2: Blank (4%)

Do you race in FV Today?
122: Yes, 5 or more races per year (48%)
49: Yes, less than 5 races per year (19%)
19: Yes, less than 5 races per year, but I expect to race more if a spec tire is adopted. (8%)
29: No, but I would be more inclined to race FV if there were a spec tire. (12%)
33: No (13%)

Responses only from those self described as ‘racing today’:
Would you support a spec tire?
141: Yes (74%)
47: No (25%)
2: Blank (1%)
Respondents – 190

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
139: Run a specifically designed slick (73%)
18: Change to a wider tire, similar to FST (9%)
15: Run a treaded hard tire, similar to a vintage tire (8%)
11: Move to a DOT Tire (6%)
7: Blank (4%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
27: I would race anyway (57%)
19: I would race less or quit FV (40% of NO to Spec Tire – 10% of respondents from ‘racing today’ group)
1: Blank (2%)

Responses only from those in the 2011 National Points:

Would you support a spec tire?
38 national drivers: Yes (70%)
16 national drivers: No (30%)
Respondents – 54

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
43: Run a specifically designed slick (80%)
5: Change to a wider tire (9%)
3: Change to a DOT tire (6%)
2: Treaded Tire (4%)
1: Blank (2%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Only those who voted NO)
9: I would race anyway(56%)
6: I would race less or quit FV (38% of NO to Spec Tire – 11% of respondents from 2011 National Points group)
1: Blank (6%)


Full Results Of Survey Below:
Formula Vee Spec Tire Survey
Response Status: Completes
Filter: No filter applied


1. Do you race in FV today?
Yes, 5 or more races per year. 122 48%
Yes, less than 5 races per year. 49 19%
Yes, less than 5 races per year, but I expect to race more if there were a spec tire. 19 8%
No, but I would be more inclined to race a Formula Vee if there were a spec tire. 29 12%
No 33 13%
Total 252 100%


2. Is the cost of racing a significant deterrent to your racing (or racing more)?
Yes 205 82%
No 44 18%
Total 249 100%


3. What is your largest area of expense in FV racing today?
Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 65 26%
Tires 65 26%
Entry fees 92 37%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 19 8%
Crash damage 1 0%
Other 4 2%
Total 246 100%


4. Of those items, which two expenses do you think could be best controlled or lowered with rule changes?
Travel (gas, hotel, etc.) 7 3%
Tires 189 78%
Entry fees 64 26%
Development (engine, shocks, chassis, etc.) 116 48%
Crash damage 9 4%
Other 21 9%


5. Would you like to see a spec tire implemented for Formula Vee with the intent of lowering overall tire expenses?
Yes 195 78%
No 55 22%
Total 250 100%


6. Do you think a spec tire for Formula Vee in SCCA would increase participation in FV?
Yes 139 55%
No 112 45%
Total 251 100%


7. If you are not in favor of a spec tire in Formula Vee, would having to race a spec tire cause you to race less or quit racing Formula Vee?
Not applicable, I support a spec tire. 136 57%
Yes, I would race less or quit racing FV 21 9%
No, I would race anyway. 81 34%
Total 238 100%


8. If given the following options for a spec tire, which would be your preference?
Run a specifically designed slick tire by Hoosier, Goodyear, American Racer, or other; that fits on existing FV rims, is a racing slick compound and is designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with very little grip degradation. Rubber to last 20+ sessions. 175 72%
A treaded hard tire, similar to the vintage tire, on existing rims. 20 8%
Move to a DOT tire on different rims similar to those used in the F1200 series. (requires a one time purchase of new wheels) 15 6%
Change to a wider tire, on different rims, similar to the FST tire used today. (requires a one time purchase of new wheels) 33 14%
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
craigs
Posts: 82
Joined: May 29th, 2007, 5:46 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by craigs »

So what did we learn?

I got out of it:
1. If we went with a spec tire, of those racing 8-10% said they would race less. 11% of national drivers would race less or quit. 20% would race more or be inclined to race.
2. Entry fees, tires and travel expenses are the biggest expenses (and one driver who must crash a lot).
3. If we go spec tire it should be a slick that fits on the current wheels that is designed to last 12-15 heat cycles.

What's everyone else's take?

Because I weigh national driver's opinions higher I would call it a wash on people racing more or less. If you value opinions equally we could get more participants. Maybe the biggest surprise for me is that so many people were in favor of a slick that lasts 12-15 cycles which sounds a lot like the R55/R60.

So what would I like to see now? I would like the committee to negotiate a deal similar to what SM got - a 30% discount for their SM6 vs. the R6 tire with contingencies still in place. Ideal situation in my mind is a spec R55/R60 (or maybe even a Goodyear 430) at a price 30% less than what we pay now with contingencies and support still in place. SM did it - why can't we try?

What's the committee's plan?

Thanks to the committee for their time in researching this.

Craig
P-2 Mark
Posts: 77
Joined: September 8th, 2009, 1:07 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by P-2 Mark »

Craig,

The only thing I would add is that the question responded to was "tire designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with little grip degradation, rubber to last 20 heat cycles"...
otherwise, you pretty much summed it up. I don't feel the R55 fits that model, but you're correct with the R60 grip degradation.

Mark
craigs
Posts: 82
Joined: May 29th, 2007, 5:46 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by craigs »

P-2 Mark wrote:Craig,

The only thing I would add is that the question responded to was "tire designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with little grip degradation, rubber to last 20 heat cycles"...
otherwise, you pretty much summed it up. I don't feel the R55 fits that model, but you're correct with the R60 grip degradation.

Mark
Mark:

According to someone who has spoken with Hoosier the 55 and the 60 are the same.

Craig
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by smsazzy »

Mark,

The R60 and R55 are the exact same compound according to Hoosier.

Stephen
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Bill_Bonow
Posts: 301
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:53 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by Bill_Bonow »

Stephen,

I think what you had stated earlier is that the R55B FV tire and the R60A CFF tire are made with the same chemical blend. :mrgreen: Choose your wording carefully 8)

I'd talk to Jeff Speer about R 70 VROCs
Bill Bonow
" I love Formula Vees, they're delicious!"
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by smsazzy »

Bill_Bonow wrote:Stephen,

I think what you had stated earlier is that the R55B FV tire and the R60A CFF tire are made with the same chemical blend. :mrgreen: Choose your wording carefully 8)

I'd talk to Jeff Speer about R 70 VROCs
Per Hoosier: "Again, there is no difference in your R55A and their R60A……… both are the identical compound"
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
P-2 Mark
Posts: 77
Joined: September 8th, 2009, 1:07 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by P-2 Mark »

Thanks guys! Why the different tire numbers (ie: R55 & R60) if the chemical make-up is similiar?

Mark
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by SR Racing »

?? 122 People who took the survey said they race 5 or more races a year. Thats 610 races + . Last year there were only 467 National entries across the US. Regional racing is down quite a bit from that. At least 1/3 of my customers that I have talked to (that race FV) have never visited either Apexspeed or this forum (thus not taking the survey.)
Maybe some hanging chad in the results? :?: I suspect there was some exageration by the survey entries? Not sure how it affects the survey validity one way or the other.
BLS
Posts: 441
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by BLS »

I suspect there was some exageration by the survey entries?
I would think the entries reflect both regional and national, unless I'm missing something in the wording.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
P-2 Mark
Posts: 77
Joined: September 8th, 2009, 1:07 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by P-2 Mark »

Jim,

There's over 250 replies to the survey and I'm not sure additional responses would change the % in either direction to a great extent. The group seeking
the responses did their best to make it available to everyone and if your clients aren't on either website, then maybe they need to join one or both.

Mark
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by tiagosantos »

The survey was emailed to everyone on the FV registry, right? We definitely don't have 250 people posting neither here nor on apexspeed, so hopefully it reached some of those.
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by tiagosantos »

As for the compounds.. I assume the Hoosier numbering system has into account not just the compound, but the size and width of the tire.. A wider tire with the exact same rubber will have a shorter (but wider) contact patch, so the rubber cools itself a bit better, bla bla bla bla. So that may account for the difference in wear. If that's true, then I assume we should start by asking Hoosier/Goodyear what the chances of coming up with a different compound are. I'd love to hear what they think of all this before we waste time chasing some technical impossibility or whatever :)

Can we have a tire that's faster than the current tires, costs half as much and lasts 2 seasons, please? :)
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by problemchild »

P-2 Mark wrote: "tire designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with little grip degradation, rubber to last 20 heat cycles"...
Mark
Yes, and the previous history of compounds, constructions, models, etc is irrelevent.
Bruce Foss from Hoosier is capable of making the tire we need. He is capable of doing it in the immediate future. Get him started. Then, tell Goodyear, American Racer, and anybody else you find, that they need to step up and come to the table to compete with Hoosier for the FV spec tire contract. If they choose not to do that, or submit an existing tire, then we can come to a quick decision, and Hoosier can become the supplier. Since they are the dominant supplier currently, it would provide the easiest transition and be a virtually seemless for many.
If we get real competition for the FV spec tire contract, then we will have to extend the process slightly, but considering the strong interest, there is no time to waste. And we certainly do not want it left to SCCA to negotiate some corporate deal where our supplier needs to be helping pay SCCA salaries. This needs to be all about the best product at the best price for all FV competitors.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
John Deonarine
Posts: 72
Joined: November 5th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by John Deonarine »

When and where was the survey posted on the Formula Vee Interchange Site?

John
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by Dietmar »

John:

Check your messages on this site.

Dietmar
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by SR Racing »

P-2 Mark wrote:Thanks guys! Why the different tire numbers (ie: R55 & R60) if the chemical make-up is similiar?
Over the last few years there have been several chemical changes. (55, 55A, 55B, etc. ) Until late last year the 55 and 60 were different. Then they went to the same compound. They just didn't change the number on the tires. I talked with Hoosier a couple days ago. They are changing the stamping to indicate the same on all tires on their next run. (They typically do a build run on the FV's every month or two. So you may see 60's around for awhile.
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

problemchild wrote: for the FV spec tire contract
And exactly who is providing and signing this contract?

You guy still need to figure out the politics of this issue.

Brian
P-2 Mark
Posts: 77
Joined: September 8th, 2009, 1:07 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by P-2 Mark »

Brian:

What politics are you referring to?
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by problemchild »

There is lots of politics to deal with .....
With the incredibly strong support for spec tires growing, the community needs to keep pushing and make sure this happens as quickly as possible. There is real momentum now, and alot of focus coming to FV next year. If we can get Hoosier to spec out a spec tire for us, it puts pressure on the other tire companies and SCCA to get on with it. Its not the time to roll over and settle for some distant plan. This can happen for 2013. We need to keep pushing!
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by Speedsport »

Dont forget SCCA will not want to deal with this. Plus there are more drivers against this idea then have spoken out. There are still a large group of us who feel this can be a huge set back for the class, and will fight against it. I don't see the momentum growing other then an increased bitching over tire costs on internet forums.

I don't get it though. Almost every class that has a spec tire has people in the class complaining about it....yet people seem to be oblivious to that. So far there has been no proof that such a concept even works. I don't consider the Canadian series proof. F1600? Their tires are good for 1 weekend. Again, no proof.

Those in favor of a spec tire I don't think really understand the dangers they are dealing with. What happens if we "sign a contract" and it turns out people are actually spending more on tires? Or what if we go through all this BS and don't end up with 2 more people racing?

What happens in the year we switch over? Everyone's inventory of tires becomes worthless. I usually have a few sets with some life in them at the end of the year....so I loose my $2000 since I won't be able to race on them the following season? Sign me up!!!

If you want to cut the current tire budgets down, simply request that Hoosier and GY stop making multiple compounds on mulitple size tires. That will solve a lot of the problems and still leave us with a fantastic tire and little downside risk.

While you guys reply with the expected hate mail, I'll go back to adjusting my $600 front shocks, $1000 rear shock, look at data from my $5000 data system and re-mount the antenna for the $1000 radio system since I'm sure it won't be much longer I can play with those things before they become the next target of elimination. I mean, no point in having a spec tire but allow such other things...
fvracer27
Posts: 247
Joined: October 25th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by fvracer27 »

Speedsport wrote:If you want to cut the current tire budgets down, simply request that Hoosier and GY stop making multiple compounds on mulitple size tires. That will solve a lot of the problems and still leave us with a fantastic tire and little downside risk.

While you guys reply with the expected hate mail, I'll go back to adjusting my $600 front shocks, $1000 rear shock, look at data from my $5000 data system and re-mount the antenna for the $1000 radio system since I'm sure it won't be much longer I can play with those things before they become the next target of elimination. I mean, no point in having a spec tire but allow such other things...
Very ture

A buddy of mine works for a GT team and they run spec tires you wanna take a guess how much they are? $2200 a set they used 26 sets for the 24 :shock:

Another friend runs a FE again spec tire similar in price to ours 3 times as wide and he is lucky to get 6 cycles on them before they are worn off and I know because I mount and dismount the tires for him and they are thin when I take them off.

So if we lock into a spec time with a company and they make something that is not like everyone wants (20+ cycles with very little fall off) then we are stuck again and will have to switch.

I think we have a pretty good tire now with the 55s just make them less expensive.
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by tiagosantos »

I have a buddy that works for F1, they also run a spec tire, you know how much those cost? Squazillions of dollars!.. Sorry, that's just not relevant..

Different classes have spec tires for different reasons. Most just want to make sure everyone runs the same tire, for competitive reasons. Although that's an important aspect of having a spec tire, that's not what the FV spec tire needs to be about. It's clear from the survey that most people who want a spec tire in FV, want it for cost reasons. So, considering none of us are idiots and the committee (if they end up leading the charge on this, which I hope they do) is composed of people that I consider pretty sharp and reasonable, they're not gonna pick a spec tire that is even remotely similar to FE or GT specs. The class philosophy is not even close and the tire situation bears no resemblance.

Yes, if we leave it to the SCCA, we run the risk that they'll pick something that is convenient for them ($$$) and not what the people were looking for. Which is why we need to give the committee the legitimacy they need to do this right. I'm sure they don't want to spend their time, money and effort chasing tire companies, testing tires, dealing with all the bullshit only to be told at the end that no one cares and they have no pull in anything official. So in my opinion, that's the first step - ensure that the committee (or a different "association" if that's what it takes) has the necessary pull to take this issue to the end.

As was said before, with the right spec tire, some of the fast guys will still be spending thousands on tires every year. It's their right and their problem.. But it'll mean the disadvantage of not buying a new set every weekend is measured in tenths, not seconds. The least acceptable way of dealing with this is picking the hardest current tire (R55's) as a spec and getting the price down. That would still not make it more expensive than it currently is. Picking a softer spec tire is unthinkable and just won't happen. I think the survey results were clear in what the majority of the respondents are looking for and what they will accept - a softer or more expensive tire is unacceptable and would be shot down by member input, including those of us who WANT a spec tire.

edit: As far as shocks and data systems - I don't see how that is relevant either. Tires are consumables, and an easy recurrent expense to limit, that will make racing more affordable to everyone. Shocks and data systems are usually much longer term investments, that compared to tire budgets, are pretty cheap. I can run without a data system if I want to, and a great driver can be competitive without one. Put Vettel in a vee with 12 sessions on the current tires and he won't win most Nationals..
craigs
Posts: 82
Joined: May 29th, 2007, 5:46 pm

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by craigs »

tiagosantos wrote:The least acceptable way of dealing with this is picking the hardest current tire (R55's) as a spec and getting the price down.
The R55 is what 72% of the people are looking for when asked what type of spec tire they would want.

"A specifically designed slick tire by Hoosier, Goodyear, American Racer, or other; that fits on existing FV rims, is a racing slick compound and is designed to last 12-15 heat cycles with very little grip degradation. Rubber to last 20+ sessions."

That's the R55.
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Spec Tire Survey Results

Post by problemchild »

Speedsport wrote:Dont forget SCCA will not want to deal with this. Plus there are more drivers against this idea then have spoken out. There are still a large group of us who feel this can be a huge set back for the class, and will fight against it. I don't see the momentum growing other then an increased bitching over tire costs on internet forums.

I don't get it though. Almost every class that has a spec tire has people in the class complaining about it....yet people seem to be oblivious to that. So far there has been no proof that such a concept even works. I don't consider the Canadian series proof. F1600? Their tires are good for 1 weekend. Again, no proof.

Those in favor of a spec tire I don't think really understand the dangers they are dealing with. What happens if we "sign a contract" and it turns out people are actually spending more on tires? Or what if we go through all this BS and don't end up with 2 more people racing?

What happens in the year we switch over? Everyone's inventory of tires becomes worthless. I usually have a few sets with some life in them at the end of the year....so I loose my $2000 since I won't be able to race on them the following season? Sign me up!!!

If you want to cut the current tire budgets down, simply request that Hoosier and GY stop making multiple compounds on mulitple size tires. That will solve a lot of the problems and still leave us with a fantastic tire and little downside risk.

While you guys reply with the expected hate mail, I'll go back to adjusting my $600 front shocks, $1000 rear shock, look at data from my $5000 data system and re-mount the antenna for the $1000 radio system since I'm sure it won't be much longer I can play with those things before they become the next target of elimination. I mean, no point in having a spec tire but allow such other things...
With the incredibly strong support for spec tires growing, the community needs to keep pushing and make sure this happens as quickly as possible. There is real momentum now, and alot of focus coming to FV next year. If we can get Hoosier to spec out a spec tire for us, it puts pressure on the other tire companies and SCCA to get on with it. Its not the time to roll over and settle for some distant plan. This can happen for 2013. We need to keep pushing!

It would be nice if people worked hard to make sure it worked rather than to make sure it does not work.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
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