Bolt on valve covers

[brian]

At Infinieon this weekend, we had another incident of a valve cover being knocked off resulting in the retirement of several cars. I know Michael V. would support it as well. Why don't we make it mandatory that everyone have bolt on valve covers? It would be cheaper than damage repair and HANS devices.

[FV80]

Brian,
I, for one, would certainly be in favor of that. Why don't you propose it through the CRB website and let's see what happens ?
Steve, FV80

[tiagosantos]

Darn it I just spent $10 two months ago on some used stock covers!

Sounds good to me though. There was a similar proposal for solo last winter, wasn't there? Why didn't that go through?

[brian]

OK, I'll write the letter tomorrow. Tiago, amigo you can have bosses welded into to your clip on covers and save some weight.

[fvracer27]

Then what do you do if you get hit and the cover comes off and cracks a head instead of just poping off?

[FV80]

Then what do you do if you get hit and the cover comes off and cracks a head instead of just poping off?

Something quite less than what you do if the cover gets knocked off and you run out of oil before you realize it (which OFTEN happens when it gets knocked off).
Steve, FV80

[Ed Womer]

Mark did ask the important question about what happens when the bolt on one gets knocked off and takes out the valve train and leaves a broken off stud in the head or worse. Problem is as long as we use these engines it will always be an issue that can happen with the right conditions. Even with my forward facing trailing arms I have had mine knocked off but I noticed it on the track and went into the pits which was right there and didn't lose the engine.

Ed

[SR Racing]

For under $30 it is really a no brainer. I have seen them hit and break. I have not seen a head damaged. The cover typically cracks and that is about it. If you get hit hard enough to damage the head, it will happen with either type cover. It certainly won't leak the oil that a missing stock one will when it gets knocked off. Also they install easier than the stock ones (ie. with the gasket in place). Not to mention they are finned and probably drop 1 to 5 deg of oil temp.
(Please use safety wire though. If the bolts come out, they leak just as bad as the stock ones.)

[Veefan]

I think the same accident that could knock an old school cover off would crack open a new style cover anyway. In either case you still get oil on the track but you might have a little less with the new style .

It makes a lot of sense in Solo racing since it's really hard for a cone to crack a valve cover.

[problemchild]

I think if it was a "no-brainer", we would all be doing it anyway.

Clip-on valve covers are certainly easier than bolt-on covers to install and you don't have to worry about cracking by overtightening, or safety wire.

Last night, I was meeting with one engine-builder friend, who I told of the proposed rule. He looked annoyed. When I asked him why he used traditional covers, he said "he'd lost too many heads when the trailing arm came in and made contact with a bolt-on valve cover'. (most of the cars in our area have forward arms). I don't really care, as I have a stockpile that I have taken off, but it is clear that alot of people don't want the bolt-on ones.

[SR Racing]

he said "he'd lost too many heads when the trailing arm came in and made contact with a bolt-on valve cover'.

How many? And he knows that if it was a stock cover it wouldn't have hurt the head?

[CitationFV21]

It looks like there are 2 camps, but like the front pulley issue, I don't see a performance advantage.

Trailing arm cars (in front of the axle) don't seem to have as much of a problem with the cover getting knocked off. Not to say it can't happen.

Leading arm cars do.

If there is no performance advantage, then I don't see any problem.

I will stay with my stock covers though...

ChrisZ

[cendiv37]

Chris,

Bolt on valve covers are already legal, unlike the front pulley (seals) were at the time I assume you are referring to.

The question on the table is whether to *mandate* the use of bolt on valve covers under the assumption they would stay on more of the time, thus reducing the effect on the race that a major oil spill can have.

Last year's Runoffs is one example where the loss of a valve cover changed the whole race.
I was involved in an incident at turn 7 at Mid-Ohio (we were then running the keyhole) in the '98 Runoffs that also significantly effected that race. Not only did a lot of guys end up in the gravel trap down the hill with me, but due the yellow that lasted for the rest of the race, the "race" was mostly a procession from there on. It was not my valve cover, and at the time I was probably using bolt on covers, but that made no difference since that was not where the contact occurred on my car.

I believe that here is another problem with the clip on valve covers and that is that they will all too often "suck" a gasket, causing a significant leak in a short time. Of course this is not so much the fault of the cover, but the mechanic who failed to check it when the valves were last adjusted. Bolt on valve covers are more likely to just gradually seep more and more as a gasket goes bad.

So do we want to *mandate* bolt on valve covers? I don't know.

[jpetillo]

In my opinion, not yet, anyway. I thank Brian for bringing this up. My concern here with the question of mandating the bolt on valve covers is that we have reasonable statistics to base it on. Perhaps another question is, how often does losing a valve cover need to happen to make the situation intolerable? Jim appropriately asked Greg with regard to bolt on covers that damaged heads from leading arms contacting them if we knew the same would not have happened with the stock covers. The same question can be asked about whether the stock covers that were knocked off during races would not have been knocked off if they were bolt on. We really can't answer those questions, as valid as they are. We need to go by statistics.

Steve suggested that the almost certain engine getting trashed from the valve cover oil loss is not necessarily better than breaking the head. That's a fair statement. Although the heads may not easily be replaceable, since they are often the heart of an engine's performance. I would not worry about my engine getting back its old performance if I had to change everything but the heads, but the opposite is not true. Replacing a set of heads (or one head) will give you different engine performance. So, Mark and Greg's original concerns about the likelihood of the bolt on covers damaging a head is a valid one.

For me, I've never seen oil loss from a valve cover. I've seen a broken push rod tube dumping oil at our Rational this year. Yes, it poured out. I've seen an oil drain plug knocked loose from an off road excursion. Yes, it poured out, too. But, this is just my experience - very limited - I have two data points on the oil loss issue - sort of meaningless on its own. I've seen more repeated (and more dangerous) crashes from other specific part failures than from oil covers coming loose or coming off. Again - just my limited experience. Not enough to go by on its own.

We have people who have been in the sport a very many years and they have the most statistics. But everyone's experiences are important to have. My suggestions would be to attempt to gather some of it and see what that data supports. We can't go by the experiences of just a few. We need a broader set of experiences to minimize the effect of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories that will come from each contribution - we're only human!

I currently have a bias for what I'd like to do, but with more information, my mind can always be changed. John

[problemchild]

We have people who have been in the sport a very many years and they have the most statistics. But everyone's experiences are important to have. My suggestions would be to attempt to gather some of it and see what that data supports. We can't go by the experiences of just a few. We need a broader set of experiences to minimize the effect of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories that will come from each contribution - we're only human!

You're kidding right? Our whole system is built on member input. Every decision is made by the effects of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories

I relayed comments from a high volume engine builder who also prepares customer cars and a rental fleet. It was his professional opinion based on his 35+ years experience. There is atleast one other high volume engine builder that has a similiar opinion. As I recall, Mr Noble was not a fan of bolt-on covers either. These are opinions. This is not a no-brainer. Right or wrong, many people have chosen not to use them for reasons that are valid to them.

I can personally say that I have had more problems with bolt-on covers than clip-on covers. I expect we would have more oily track problems immediately following this rule change, as people learned the nuances of using them ..... before returning to the status quo.

[VDF1]

I noticed one performance difference a few years ago when I was still racing: The bolt-on covers with fins increase the frontal area of the car. Not very much, but all "aero" improvements are very small aren't they?

[Matt King]

Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.

[FV80]

Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.

Yeah... you could mount some sort of BOLT or similar to the head... and maybe drill a hole in the cover to let the bolt come through and ... OH.. we already have that, BOLT ON VALVE COVERS

You COULD safety wire the bail somehow, but any force that would knock the clip off would surely override the strength of the safety wire .. unless you didn't clip it properly in the first place.
The force of a TIRE against that bail is REALLY HIGH. It would take quite some mechanism to hold that bail in place. No doubt a LOT more effort than simply using the bolt on covers..
Steve, FV80

[fvracer27]

Is there a problem with the covers just falling off?

Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.

Yes.... make sure no one puts a wheel where a wheel should not be or you putting the car where is should not be.

I think with either cover there can be problems maybe different problems but problems

[CitationFV21]

Chris,

Bolt on valve covers are already legal, unlike the front pulley (seals) were at the time I assume you are referring to.

The question on the table is whether to *mandate* the use of bolt on valve covers under the assumption they would stay on more of the time, thus reducing the effect on the race that a major oil spill can have.

I don't know.

Thats' what happens when you don't have a current GCR handy and the car is collecting dust in the garage.

I meant the aluminum pulleys which are optional and the bolt on covers should be optional. Lots of ways oil can get on the track - I don't see it as a problem to mandate it.

ChrisZ

[fvracer27]

Thats' what happens when you don't have a current GCR handy and the car is collecting dust in the garage.

GCR is online for free and it always updated.

Lots of ways oil can get on the track - I don't see it as a problem to mandate it.

Exactly

[Matt King]

Yes.... make sure no one puts a wheel where a wheel should not be or you putting the car where is should not be.

OK, I will "make sure" that never happens. Maybe we should put it in the GCR: no FV may make contact with another car in such a manner that allows a valvecover to be knocked off.

[fvracer27]

OK, I will "make sure" that never happens. Maybe we should put it in the GCR: no FV may make contact with another car in such a manner that allows a valvecover to be knocked off.

These are not bumper cars if you wanted to have contact with other cars go get a tin top. Its not supossed to happen period I never said it would never happen nor did I say stay 50' away from another car because I'm sure someone will give me crap for that. I guess I needed to put a smiliy face so everyone would see I did not mean it the way you took it. This is what make people not want to even say anything or get involved. Open wheel drivers should be able to run close at speed without touching ea other most of the time and yes there are times when something happens that's the way it is.

[tiagosantos]

So it should never happen, we should always be able to drive close without touching - but sometimes it happens and that's the way it is. Huh?

I guess I agree, we should try to avoid contact (and we do..). It should never happen (it shouldn't, really!). But it happens - and it sucks when it does, so why not try to avoid some of the consequences? We should never crash and go upside down either, so why do we use helmets and roll bars?

[fvracer27]

This was about valve covers and now we are talking about roll bars and helmets

Ill sit and read all the non sense and keep my thoughts to myself like most.