April meeting

[tiagosantos]

There might not be as much of a real, measurable, performance difference, as one that's perceived, preconceived or whatever else.

You know, whatever. I understand both sides, why change something that, despite the decrease in participation, is still the best attended open wheel class out there? On the other hand, why the hell not? Make the cars easier to work on, more familiar to drivers (like me) who have never worked on cars with drum brakes before, or steering boxes or whatever..

As this point, having just killed an engine, I'd rather have a dry sump, but then again.. Who knows why it died, most likely something I did wrong.. I'm sure in 10 years, if I can afford this that long, I'll have picked up all the tricks on making these things last

[SR Racing]

Standard link pin beams are getting harder to find, expensive and they will not be making them for long. So any disk brake option with link pin beams doesn't seem like a good idea.

However, I would ALLOW BJ beams with discs or Link Pin beams with discs. There would be no performance advantage. Or IF you think there is just add a penalty of xx lbs, etc. until some history is captured.

All new parts for the front BJ beam with disc brakes (beam, rotors, calipers, bearings, seals, spindles, sway bar, spring pack, etc) is under about $700 retail new. The most difficult part is nose fibreglass mods. The beams are a bit bigger and farther apart.

Any change or migration plan is inconvenient and will cost some money. Other than inflation and parts shortages there hasn't been many rules changes that added prices to the Vee in a few decades. $700 (IMO) doesn't seem like a lot of money in the whole scheme of things if your hobby is wheel to wheel racing.

Considering a disc brake change to the rear, would be nothing but simple bolt on stuff. (calipers, rotors, mounts, ) Retail NEW $250

The wheel/tire combo you go with will affect the above, but you can stay with the current Vee combo and there is no added cost. (Actually the rotors (5 wide) are a bit cheaper.

Since it would be optional and arguably offers no performance advantage, I can't see someone leaving the class or even missing a race because of it.

Non-performance advantages are, cheaper maintenance. cheaper brakes, no adjustments. much easier alignment and longevity, no more brake drum and spindle breakage issues and all in new boxes.

[Bill_Bonow]

As this point, having just killed an engine, I'd rather have a dry sump, but then again.. Who knows why it died, most likely something I did wrong.. I'm sure in 10 years, if I can afford this that long, I'll have picked up all the tricks on making these things last

Tiago,

This is one of the things I always hated about FV. The oil level is a "trick" that must be learned (tribal knowledge passed down from the elders) and it is critical to get it right. Some will even say that gives them an advantage over newbies, that is terrible mind set. Dry sump is not the root of all things evil. The earth will not tilt off its axis if FV allows dry sump. I've read the claim that 1200 major engine parts are plentyfull, all I've seen for a good while is used junk. If for no other reason, dry sump will dramatically increase your lower end major parts longevity not to mention oil leaks will become a thing of the past. Most have data logging systems. Look at oil pressure and at many tracks, you will see there are spots where your at WOT and the oil pressure is going down. It doesn't need to get to zero or even trip your warning light. If the pressure is going down, your sucking air and causing damage. It is most likely minor, but after the season, the typical FV engine bearings look like 10 miles of bad road. We've had dry sump engines with 40+ hours on them where the crank/bearings look like brand new.

Performance gain? A small amount without question. But just ask a Formula Ford guy if he would ever consider running a wet sump (perfectly legal in FF) and they will laugh at you. They don't use them for performance, they use them to make the engine survive.

Cost? A pump is about $110 and a tank is in the $300 range. Figure hose and fittings and your at $500 for the DIY type. $1000 if you have it done for you. That is still way less than the cost of one trashed engine.

One final thought, I've known more than a few newbies who blew an engine in drivers school, due to not understaning proper oil level techniques. Many of those quickly sold the car and never came back. FV needs to be as bullet-proof as possible, now more than ever.

[tiagosantos]

As I said, I understand both sides.. But sometimes, and probably I'm just being naive about the cost or complexity or how much of an advantage something really is, I don't understand the arguments completely.

Dry sumps for instance, would surely give us a performance advantage.. For a $1000 total cost that might save you a bunch of money. On the other hand, I'm sure some people have no trouble with their oiling systems cause it's been tweaked with every possible trick and what not. How much did THAT cost? And how do you compare the advantage you get for those 1000 bucks versus spending 5 grand on a fresh engine from one of the top builders? Wait, can you even buy an engine for 5 grand..?

[problemchild]

I work on dry-sump cars every day. To get the correct oil level, I must run the engine, and immediately check the level. On some cars, I can determine the level if the engine has been run recently. Until I know which cars are which, I use the first method. With FV engines, I run the engine and immediately check the oil level. Some engines I can check oil level with the engine running. Whether wet or dry sump, I determine the correct level by monitoring the catch tank content. The ability to determine correct oil level is not rocket scientistry, but no different between wet or dry sump. When FST went dry sump, there was one guy who blew up engines whether they had wet sump, dry sump, accusumps, or whatever.

There are advantages and disadvantages to dry sump systems but ease of determining oil level would be neither, IMO.

There are many respected and competitive race series around the world that specify wet sump systems as part of their cost containment strategy. It has nothing to do with being a "real" race car or not

[BLS]

There are advantages and disadvantages to dry sump systems

Greg, other than space for and mounting the catch can, is there any other disadvantage? I can't think of one.

[smsazzy]

OK ... let's start with disk brakes.
Option 1 - link pin beams only - wide 5 conversion only - front only. (around $900 last I checked a couple of years ago - I have no weight data, so no idea about performance issues)
Option 2 - link pin beams only - wide 5 conversion only - front and rear (I don't know that I've seen a rear conversion option from anyone for that).
option 3 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs only - front only - requires conversion to later model 4 bolt wheels (but conversion kit is considerably less expensive) - this is the conversion that I tested several years ago - about $300 IIRC).
option 4 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs only - front and rear .. I THINK this is available - front about $300 and rear about another $300.
option 5 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs or wide five - front only. Considerable difference in price - no idea about any difference in performance.
option 6 - link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs or wide five in front - 4 bolt or wide five in rear (I have not seen a conversion kit for wide 5 in rear .. but it might be out there).
option 7 - allow conversion to ball joint beams - 4 bolt only - front only - this is a MUCH bigger configuration change and we have NO IDEA how it might affect handling/performance - how would we manage it ... how could we balance potential advantages?? Significant weight change of beam and hardware as well as track.

Here's how I would do it:

Year 1 - allow disc brakes using existing wheel tire combo. Fronts only. (arbitrary weight penalty - 25 pounds?)
Year 2 - allow disc brake conversion - rear also (adjust weight penalty based on realized performace advantages/disadvantages)
Year 3 - allow conversion to 4 bolt hubs
Year 5 - allow conversion to ball joint beams with steering rack.

This gives people options. They can convert early and stay there, or they can upgrade every year. Up to them. The difference between year 1/2 and 3/4 should be nothing in performance, just extra choices for parts. Or you can stay with the wide 5 kit and use all those wheels you have stockpiled for another 5 years. Just to make sure people are not required, make the penalty in weight significant enough to be a slight disadvantage initially to make the switch. Eventually, the hot set up should be the year 5 plan. That is the goal. The end game should not have disc in front and drum in the rear. We can sell all these parts to the vintage guys to pay for part of our conversion.

Keep the engine as is, keep the tranny as is. Make the Chinese P/C's legal over the winter. Done, where do we sign?

[FV80]

...other than space for and mounting the catch can, is there any other disadvantage? I can't think of one.

COST and, for a measureable number of cars *SPACE*. Many cars would not have the additional room to install the dual pump required. Many would also not have the space for the tank required. I'm pretty sure I could get the pump into mine, but it would mean that several more items than currently would have to be removed before I could change the engine. I would have GREAT difficulty finding a place for the tank. For sure, it would have to be high related to CG and probably some quite weird shape.

Steve, FV80

[problemchild]

There are advantages and disadvantages to dry sump systems

Greg, other than space for and mounting the catch can, is there any other disadvantage? I can't think of one.

I'm not interested in participating in a public dry sump discussion as I believe FV will never adopt it and I won't waste my time. I am very much opposed to the idea, just as I was in FST. It is an unnecassary expense. There is considerable performance potential with development of systems. With the small car and stupid minimum weight rules, that have driven away hundreds of larger drivers, there is just not room for dry sump pumps and tanks in the cars.

If specific people have ongoing engine issues, they should take personal responsibility for it. Take their business to a respected FV engine builder whose engines don't blow up. Put the proper amount of oil in it and keep the proper amount of oil in it by fixing places it comes out. If the builder blames the zinc content or wet sump for his failures, find another builder.

The FST rule package is a complete package which addresses all of FV shortcomings. The compromises of partial conversion are not viable. I would urge people to go race FST or don't.

The two major problems with FV are driver size restrictions and tires. Both can be fixed without significant cost or obsoleting current cars. I would urge people to fix those issues and forget about all those other partial part updates.

Falken radials rock!

[FV80]

Year 1 - allow disc brakes using existing wheel tire combo. Fronts only. (arbitrary weight penalty - 25 pounds?)
Year 2 - allow disc brake conversion - rear also (adjust weight penalty based on realized performace advantages/disadvantages)
... Make the Chinese P/C's legal over the winter. Done, where do we sign?

OK - year 1 - I found a conversion kit over at CIP1 for (on sale) $500 + shipping - it's heavy, so about $50+ more for shipping (then TAX on top of that for some). Add to that the UNKNOWN reliability issue of the rotors made into the new hubs. Uses existing spindles so no change there - still have potential breakage issue ...and I think there will probably be some additional offset that will add additional load to those spindles. The conversion will probably weigh some 10 - 12 pounds extra and Stephen says we can add more to get up to +25lbs over everyone else's minimum. edit: I also don't see any 'spare' rotor/hubs available. You MIGHT have to buy another complete kit to get a spare (hopefully not, but...)

How many would drop the $bux$ to install this kit today ?? ... Stephen? Would YOU put this on your new Vortech?

Chinese P&C - currently not legal because the ring lands are in a different location. I don't know whether that location would be an advantage or not. The ring lands are also a different width so I hear - that means a new ring package will have to be developed. Anyone have additional information about that? It's not just a matter of "make 'em legal" until we investigate the ramifications of such a move. We COULD, of course, allow them and REQUIRE that the standard (as delivered) ring package be used with them. Anyone want to do that (and probably give up 3 or 4 HP)??

Steve, FV80

[hardingfv32-1]

Has Noble, Veetech, or Autowerks voiced any concern about P&C supply concerns?

What is Carr's opinion on dry sumps? I can't imagine he would favor their use.

Frankly, you are not going to get far without Carr's agreement on these subjects. He holds sway over the biggest FV voting block.

Brian

[hardingfv32-1]

On a switch to disc brakes, what is Pastore's opinion on the subject? He would be doing a lot of the retrofit work for the greatest number of cars. Does he feel it is worth the trouble or is he in the don't change anything camp?

The fact is that the Carr/Pastore combination hold sway over the largest block of voting FV competitors. This discussion is moot without their approval on this subject.

Does anyone have knowledge about what their position might be?

Brian

[brian]

Steve, I know there are some Chinese P&C in use as we speak. Can't really get myself to protest, since it's really rather esoteric and their quality is open to question. It does require modifications in the ring packs, specifically the spacers we use to fit contemporary rings into our pistons. I requested the CRB allow us to run open ring lands to reduce the cost of spacers, often as expensive as the rings, but it was rejected. A bit too scary for something to be "open." I guess.

There's several things can be done to reduce oil starvation, most do not cost very much. I tell folks to check their oil like Greg does. Start the engine, get the pressure up and dip the stick. No secrets there. Every engine can be a little different. Some have a lot of plumbing and are prone to captivate oil on shut down. If you are not careful, you'll overfill and puke on the track. If you oil is on the full line while idling, you should be ok. Don't let it get lower than that, it will lead to problems.

[BLS]

Steve and Greg, thanks for the reply regarding the dry sump issue. From my recent research in understanding the current state of FV I perceived a big problem with the oil system and problems with many cars oiling the track. Perhaps it is not such a big problem to warrant the dry sump system.

[smsazzy]

If the timeline I outlined were approved (hypothetically speaking of course) I would likely make changes in year 1 and year 5. Year two might happen. Depends if the rears in year two are the same ones I would run in year 5. Realistically, I would probably make the switch as things wore out. If I need to replace a drum, I would just make the switch then. Just depends on when I am starting to replace stuff.

The fact that the LOCATION of the ring lands is different is a little concerning. Their size i don't think makes any real difference. Isn't everyone running spacers or specially machined rings anyway. The fact that the rings are in a slightly different location probably does not do anything anyway in the real world. Maybe it helps emissions.

Ask Palermo about the rings. I think he has played around with the chinese stuff. He can probably tell you if it makes a difference or not.

[A.Abbott]

Ok so it seems people are always talking about wanting to get younger guys (under 30) into formula vee and people always want to know how to do that. Well I am 21 years old for those who don’t know who I am, and have been racing Formula Vee’s since I was 16. I love this class and I will be here for a while. I understand that there is a LOT of history in this class but keeping the cars in the Stone Age makes it difficult to move forward and let FV make new history. Now I am by no means saying we need to make a bunch of changes right now because I certainly can not afford that, but why cant we take small steps every year to improve our cars and our racing. Now before I go on I will say that there might be some of you that might not like what I have to say but please just don’t look at me as a “punk young kid” and just blow me off I want FV to be just as successful as anyone else out there. I feel that the reason we don’t have disc brakes, or a steering rack is because to many people want to keep formula vee “authentic” and think it will ruin the class. That’s what vintage racing is for. By not making these changes I think we are holding the class back. Formula First was created = point proven. I would really like to see disc brakes and a steering rack personally. For parts availability, maintenance, and safety reasons. It is very simple if the formula vee community wants to attract younger driver like they say they do then we need to make changes because there is only a handful of drivers under 25. Saying and doing are to different things there is a lot of people that say they want younger drivers but don’t want to make changes to make the class more appealing. I completely understand the idea of keeping formula vee authentic but there is a point when you need to upgrade from the 60’s if you want to move forward in the class. I also would like to say that the “performance advantage” only make the class more appealing and if everyone has disc brakes where does the “advantage” part come into play??

[problemchild]

Andrew, I thank you for your comments and respect them.
Why do you choose to draw the line at disc brakes and steering rack?
If one made a list of various complaints about the class (sample below), why would those two change your interest level?
It seems everybody has issues but not common issues.

Tires too expensive
Tires wear out to fast
Wheels are goofy
Wheels have supply issues
Too many tranny options requiring changes for different tracks
Shortbox encouraging high rpm
Engine reliability issues
Engine part supply issues
General part supply issues
Engine parts costs
General parts costs
Goofy steering box
Goofy Drum brakes
Spindle strength issues
Rear Drum strength issues
No side protection
Small cockpits
Expensive Intake manifolds
Low minimum weight limit
Wet sump issues
Expensive shock use
Lousy race groupings

[tiagosantos]

Greg - I'm noticing a trend here of the youngest drivers, and new drivers getting into the class (I found some threads from a couple years ago when Matt King moved into FV..) requesting disc brakes. Coincidence? I really don't think so..

As I said before, if you've worked with drum brakes for 30 years and you have a pile of these things at home, you have no clue how big a deal it is. Disc brakes would cut my maintenance time in half between races, that's how f#%king long I spend messing with the damn things. I can check the oil level, adjust the valves, nut and bolt the whole car, check timing and check the alignment in less time than it takes me to adjust the brakes. I'm sure in 20 years I'll be laughing at myself, but I swear sometimes I feel like skipping a weekend so I don't have to spend 2 hours on the garage floor cursing and pulling my hair out.

It would also take care of almost half of your list of problems - change to 4 bolt hubs and wheels are a-plenty, you can buy pretty ones if you want, spindles are stronger, $150 rear drums are a thing of the past. I don't think the "performance advantage" is a good enough excuse to stop this. It wouldn't be a mandatory change, if you're running regionals and don't mind the drums, keep running them. How is it any different than spending an extra 2 or 3 grand on a National motor? You could also do that and get a big jump on your regional buddies, but we're not outlawing big motors, are we?

I had a quote for carbotech shoes of $143 per axle, and was told they should last 4-5 races if adjusted properly. I do 7-8 weekends a season, 2 races each weekend (practice, qualifying and race, times two) = 14-16 races.. Plus 2 or 3 test days, so lets say the equivalent of 18 races a year - and maybe I'm too gentle on my brakes and I'd suddenly become a wizard at adjusting them, so I'd only use up 3 sets of shoes in a year. At 286 bucks for a set, that's... $858 bucks a year!! Are you kidding me?!! Are these not a performance advantage? Are they not more expensive than the whole conversion to discs?!! I must be missing something.

[fvracer27]

I can check the oil level, adjust the valves, nut and bolt the whole car, check timing and check the alignment in less time than it takes me to adjust the brakes.

Are you serious? Adjusting the brakes takes me about 4 min I do it in between races if needed.

This is my second year in a Vee and the way I understand it is if you want all the rules changed just run FST correct? that gives you the brakes the "less expensive engine" " the no goofy wheels" " and the cool wheels"

Tiagosantos do you run regional or national?

Mark

[tiagosantos]

Sure, I could just run FST.. But I think having two very similar classes can't be a good thing. "Just running FST" means one less FV, that's what we're all trying to avoid, isn't it? I didn't mention anything about goofy wheels or cool wheels or whatever - I really couldn't care less about that..

I run with CACC in Canada and ICSCC in the PNW, so neither - but probably the equivalent of Regionals with the SCCA.

[D Rader]

I usually don't get to involved with the politics of our sport, but I think I have to comment on the disc brake debate. First off I mst confess I would prefer disc over drum brakes. Mostly due to the lack of availability of "light" drums, and wheels. BUT I must share what i will do if disc brakes are adopted. First: The stock pads will be tossed for composit pads, they will be cut (to my estimation) roughly in half to minimize pad size, and allow the brakes to get up to temprature, so there is consistant pedal in the begining and end of the session. (we allready have more brake than traction) then return springs will be placed between the pads to eliminate "pad scuff"(drag), this will then require shims to be placed between the caliper, and pad, and piston, and pad to retain "Good pedal" (we did this on the spec racers) after I got good at it, it took about 2 hours to do all four corners, and then required a test run to make sure there was no pull when the brakes were applied. Then the rotors would be "vent drilled" to save weight. If a minimum rotor weight were imposed, the outer edge would be welded closed,and remachined, and the innermost edge of the hub would be spray welded, and remachined to keep rotating mass close to the center. The calipers would be blueprinted (slides, and piston bores machined to perfect alignment) for good pad return. I estimate all of this will cost me in the $1200 to $1600 range per axle (1 Front, 1rear, not including new rims) We are entering the world of "real racecars" (No Offence) with disc brakes. In conclusion, my point is PLEASE,PLEASE, PLEASE, realize all of the ramifications of both directions. I personainlly know how to make both work, but I'll be very happy to sell my brake shoe arching machine. I hope this post did not offend anyone. and IThank for the comittee, and everyone for their time. Dale

[brian]

I know a lot of people will disagree with D Rader but he is dead spot on. Maybe not with specifics, but the fact the tinkerers will start to engineer the system for the unfair advantage is just a fact of life. While there is First for folks that want to "modernize" their vees, frankly, the migration has been slowed since there are areas in the country or Canada, that simply don't have enough cars to have someone to race with. I think the concept is valid, but there's just not enough folks to support two classes.

[tiagosantos]

Dale, thanks for the post - I have to admit I didn't even know a lot of those things were either possible, or an issue!

It's a pretty complicated subject, isn't it.. Are all those things being done in FST? Are they being done in all the other classes (is there any other class that runs drum brakes, sedans included?)? I guess racers being racers, it is probably being exploited wherever the wording allows it to be exploited. That said, could the rules be written to prevent it?

Now while my time estimate for messing with the brakes might have been slightly inflated (honestly, not that much.. But I get the feeling there might be some issues with my backing plates..), is the carbotech budget terribly off the mark? Almost $900 on brake shoes every year seems incredible to me..

[fvracer27]

D Radar- I agree 100%

Tiagosantos- you are correct but I'm not sure you need to change them that offen last year I started with a new set ran a school with 6 hours of on track time and 6 weekends also ran 5 test day with about 3 hours on tack ea of those days and this year I will run another 5 weekends and a few test days on the same brakes. Most of ourseekends conssist of 1 quali and 3 races. Maybe you have a problem with something or you could be correct and have a problem with the backing plates. Now I realize the fast guys "national racers" may use up bakes more than myself that's why I asked the regional/national question.

You could always use the brakes less

Mark

[smsazzy]

I know a lot of people will disagree with D Rader but he is dead spot on. Maybe not with specifics, but the fact the tinkerers will start to engineer the system for the unfair advantage is just a fact of life. While there is First for folks that want to "modernize" their vees, frankly, the migration has been slowed since there are areas in the country or Canada, that simply don't have enough cars to have someone to race with. I think the concept is valid, but there's just not enough folks to support two classes.

Brian - I know that you also arch your shoes and take them down to the machine shop to have them turned with a wheel torqued in place to gain an advantage. That is no different than what Dale is describing. Not everyone will go to that level of prep. It is personal choice and if someone feels they need to do that, let them. Not everyone is trying to win the runoffs.