April meeting

[SR Racing]

An honestly modern motor like the Honda in FF may help, but the 1600 is just sos. (same old stuff)

Yep same technology. and for FV that is good. It's almost plug'n play. But the real issues is price and availabilty for the new people. 1/2 the price on most all components and availability from dozens of vendors. Since the 1600 was the largest mass produced engine in the world and the streets are still loaded with them, they will be in production for another 30 years. In NEW boxes. (same for most all of the suspension stuff. No bg deal for people like most of us old guys, we have garages loaded wih the junk. But we are dieing/retireing like flies. It appears that is the path for FV.
You know how many new people I turn off when they want to race FV and they have found a cheap slider, roller, etc and want to get into FV? Then I give them prices to get an engine etc. and estimate a tire bil for them?

[CitationFV21]

what happened to the US economy between June of '05 and June of '06 to cause the entry numbers to decrease from that point forward by an average of 50%?

From memory, things got crappy with the economy in mid '07 (housing bubble) and late '08 (banking collapse) making things really fun for '09. And to review the June Sprint FV entry numbers again, the numbers went up by 25% from '08 to '09. From my cheap seats, that seems to be a large flaw in universally claimed "bad economy" theory.

Bill,

Since it is your area, just look at the entry lists and see who dropped off. Could have been a combination of things that were just a perfect storm - people moving to FST, cost of travel, entry fees, people retiring or changing classes, etc. The numbers could have stayed the same then due to the economy instead of picking back up. With one race and such a small sample, it is easier to look micro than to look macro. Ask the guys why they did not come back.

ChrisZ

[CitationFV21]

Just curious.

If we went to the ball joint front end (with disc brakes), is there a setup for the 5 bolt wheels or do we have to change to 4 bolt?

Thanks

ChrisZ

[SR Racing]

Just curious.
If we went to the ball joint front end (with disc brakes), is there a setup for the 5 bolt wheels or do we have to change to 4 bolt?

Yep. Actually I have a set in stock. But there are lots of options.. Actually you can get the front rotors (and rears) undrilled. Or you can get them in 5 bolt wide, 4 bolt 100mm or 4 bolt 4". By the way, you can also get just about any combo of wheels. There are at least 3 companies I have bought wheels from that CUSTOM made them for us, (3 colors) and I retailed them for $70. If you want to look even better there are also cast Aluminum in different colors available. However they won't touch a Vee type wheel unless you want a few hundred.

This is why we did the FST rules as we did. Lots of options. (Allthough most everyone went to the 4x4 so that we were all compatible for borrowing. Just set a minimum weight and a total front track width and you can ignore most everything else.

Or REALLY bite the bullet and go to the FST wheel/tire combo. Tires are CHEAPER and last 2 to 3 times as long. http://sracing.com/Store/Tires/Tires.htm And we corner like a Vee.

[Bill_Bonow]

Ask the guys why they did not come back.

Chris,

With all due respect, finding out why they don't come back ain't my job.

I could also ask if you want the font in my posts larger as well.

The point to my post was that having 4 or 5 more FV entries at the June Sprints simply means you have 15 entries instead of 10 (I.E. diddly squat).

Mike stated that the 2011June Sprint FV entry was 4 to 5 entries from being "much better" (his post, not mine). I was simply presenting my retort to his post.

As for the beams, brakes, engines,ect. I'm staying out of the FST conversion issues (technical or otherwise). As has been stated, FV is what it is. There is a "maintain" long term plan in place for FV.... Learn it, love it, live it.

[brian]

Bill my glasses work fine, the question dealt with the facts regarding the entire event, not just vees. Having gone to the Sprints many times, I think the event, in it's entirety, is down on participation. I've tried to look at National numbers on the SCCA website but it's very limited. I just figured that you might have the data on the event from prior years. Generally speaking, events, National and Regional, across the country are down. The lower on the economic scale the class is, the greater the drop in participation.

Folks, my comment regarding the Saubaru swap was more of a joke than anything else. Frankly, I'm not going to get sucked into another FV/FST discussion. Suffice to say if anyone needs parts for a FV, call me.

[SR Racing]

. Suffice to say if anyone needs parts for a FV, call me.

Ah ha ! You have monetary motivation to keep the class as is? Me too. Due to price escallations, limited competition and shortages the FV parts are bigger profit. That's why change should be considered. But.. I don't want to "suck you into another FV/FST discussion". :>

[brian]

If I really wanted to sell parts, I'd advertise or make a post. Maybe later when I can no longer participate. I know where to get most everything one needs to keep their FV alive and am willing to share the info. A while back, I posted the phone name and number of a VW salvage yard that still has a lot of stuff available. He did not receive one single call or inquiry. Frankly, I think the parts issue is grossly overstated.

[hardingfv32-1]

Having to go to a junkyard to get key parts is not a big selling point for the class. I live in S Ca and there are only 2-3 yards that have air cooled VW parts. Then there is the issue of finding a part in good condition or usable. A race car needs like new parts and they are just not going to be found with a car that is 50 years old. We should be able to purchase everything new from SR Racing,etc.

Brian

[smsazzy]

Just tell me what to bolt onto my car, and where the race is and let's get it ON!!!!!!

[SR Racing]

Frankly, I think the parts issue is grossly overstated.

You don't believe the fact that many/most FV parts are used and/or up to twice the prices of a comparable FST part? Do you know why?

Sure, you can find most any part if you are willing to search all the junk yards or pay big prices for it. (and then you typically have to bead blast it and paint it before you use it.)

It's like oil. We will NEVER run out of it, but at some point you won't be able to afford it.

[brian]

It really depends on what you're buying. Engine cases, which are getting more scarce everyday, are the same for both engines. There are hundreds of cranks and rods at MOFOCO and sell for reasonable prices. Camshafts are not costly at all. P&C are a bit of a challenge and so are heads, but I would not consider those as consumables. We could change the rules to allow Chinese P&C's or you could buy 83mm but that could be a bag of worms. We changed the rules to allow repair of heads and I have run the same heads for nearly 20 years. Brake components, springs, hydraulics and drums are readily available, as are shoes. Front backing plates are getting short, we can use later model rears and you can still buy those. A point Jim makes about the price doubling is mostly true of the prepared parts like carbs, intake and heads but not a fair comparison. I know Jim will have to have the last word, but my last point on is that the distinction between both classes is not really a parts issue. Or the cost issue for that matter, entry fees and fuel is the same for everyone and that's what's killing us all. I don't sell parts but I know where to get most everything, feel free to call. 916-712-5742,..... no charge.

[SR Racing]

Nope. You can have the last word.. My first words made my point.

[SR Racing]

Now, back to the committee. As Brian points out the cases will be getting hard to get and the prices are already high. VW has announced they will no longer be having them made. It is possible that someone will come forward with a ALMg copy. But right now the aftermarket aluminum are available. The Committee may want to get ahead of the curve and suggest for allowing the AL cases. They are stronger but much heavier. (10lbs I suspect). So there is no performance advantage. If you guys push for it, I would do the same for FST. It is of course not as much of weight issue with FST since most of us are running ballast now. And... clarification for the Chinese P&C kits might be in order for FV.

[brian]

Just learned that SCCA membership is down 21,000 from a high of 60,000 a few years ago. I feel like a crew member on the Titanic, arguing about what music to play.

[CitationFV21]

Just learned that SCCA membership is down 21,000 from a high of 60,000 a few years ago. I feel like a crew member on the Titanic, arguing about what music to play.

Documentation please.

ChrisZ

[SR Racing]

In 2003 they claimed 63,000. So I find it hard to believe a drop of 21,000. I can't find the current numbers anywhere.

[CitationFV21]

In 2003 they claimed 63,000. So I find it hard to believe a drop of 21,000. I can't find the current numbers anywhere.

The height of membership was when you got a membership for every one who bought a Subaru WRX (someone check me on that). If we still have 42,000 then that is still a substantial number of members. For example, if you walked into any concert where more than 1000 people were there, you would most likely find a fellow SCCA member.

Now did those free members drop off because they were not interested or because of the economy???

I can tell you were two went - both my sons are over 21 and one is in college and the other the military. They have been on the family plan for 20 years.

I need to check what the SCCA has for former members like this to get them back.

ChrisZ

[Terry Abbott]

We do need to think about the future.....i want to be able to pick up the phone and order the correct parts, not search bone yards and hope there telling me there Good .....do you know how many parts i have that they have said Great shape! Nobody has any good used parts in Micigan at least bone yards....

I'm with Steve on this one bolt on and Race.......i would be willing to throw all my old used up parts away to get New parts tomorrow. It may hurt my pocket at first but what the Hell hasnt hurt at some point in my racing days.....Thats Racing!!

I know of guys that have FV cars and parts sitting in the garages for years and still cant get them to part with anything, or they want to almighty dollar cause they have heard things are getting tougher to find.

We need to move forward!

and besides all my OLD pieces i can sell to vintage guys or keep them for my Vintage car someday....

All We really NEED is a FEW upgrades for the Vee's .....

If i wanted to Go First Racing i would be there. I want to STAY in FV !!!

[brian]

Noticed in the financials published in Sports Car that the club increased PR and marketing spending 50% from 800k to 1,250K. While membership revenue is down about 8%, outside sponsorships and royalties is up. Several expense areas are down so it seems like Topeka is hustling to grow the club.

[FV80]

...
All We really NEED is a FEW upgrades for the Vee's .....

If i wanted to Go First Racing i would be there. I want to STAY in FV !!!

OK Terry - Here's your chance to have an impact. What would you suggest and how should we go about it ??
(but don't forget all the 'lower end' racers out there that will quit FV rather than have to spend a bunch of bucks to stay legal and/or competitive <g>).
Steve, FV80

[smsazzy]

Why not allow disc brakes, increase minimum weight to compensate for any performace advantage by 15-25 pounds if appropriate.

No point in changing the engine. The 1600 has the same issue as the 1200 in case availability. Make the Chinese P&C's legal.

I think we're okay with the tranny, no?

Put together a 3-5 year transition to make the ball joint front end legal with the nicer steering rack legal in year 3-5.

Increase minimum weight to something to make up for the changes if appropriate.

[Terry Abbott]

Why not allow disc brakes, increase minimum weight to compensate for any performace advantage by 15-25 pounds if appropriate.

No point in changing the engine. The 1600 has the same issue as the 1200 in case availability. Make the Chinese P&C's legal.

I think we're okay with the tranny, no?

Put together a 3-5 year transition to make the ball joint front end legal with the nicer steering rack legal in year 3-5.

Increase minimum weight to something to make up for the changes if appropriate.

I Think Steven said what i had been thinking........or start with the above at the National Level and let it trickle down a year or two

[FV80]

OK ... let's start with disk brakes.
Option 1 - link pin beams only - wide 5 conversion only - front only. (around $900 last I checked a couple of years ago - I have no weight data, so no idea about performance issues)
Option 2 - link pin beams only - wide 5 conversion only - front and rear (I don't know that I've seen a rear conversion option from anyone for that).
option 3 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs only - front only - requires conversion to later model 4 bolt wheels (but conversion kit is considerably less expensive) - this is the conversion that I tested several years ago - about $300 IIRC).
option 4 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs only - front and rear .. I THINK this is available - front about $300 and rear about another $300.
option 5 - Link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs or wide five - front only. Considerable difference in price - no idea about any difference in performance.
option 6 - link pin beams only - 4 bolt hubs or wide five in front - 4 bolt or wide five in rear (I have not seen a conversion kit for wide 5 in rear .. but it might be out there).
option 7 - allow conversion to ball joint beams - 4 bolt only - front only - this is a MUCH bigger configuration change and we have NO IDEA how it might affect handling/performance - how would we manage it ... how could we balance potential advantages?? Significant weight change of beam and hardware as well as track.

I could go on for quite a while, but let's let it stop here and see what answers come back

Remember the proviso above - we cannot afford to alienate a bunch of people that DON'T want to make the change. When I proposed option #3 several years ago, it was SOUNDLY shot down by the membership as too expensive and a 'required upgrade to remain competitive'. Can we expect to bring in more people than leave if we implement a change like any of these ??

Steve, FV80

[hardingfv32-1]

There will be no requirement to update, correct?

What would be the performance advantage of disc brakes? Are we not traction limited?

What would be the performance advantage of a beam front end? Still trailing arm, correct?

Brian