April meeting

[SR Racing]

Plus, much of what Dale is describing is already specifically illegal in FST and could be made so with FV in your rules. We have also played with exotic pads (in FST) and the users went back to the $7 stock ones seeing no advantage.

FV has had lots of rules tested (pushed to the limits). This is not different in any class. The same thing will obviously happen with any rule change. But with the mass availabilty and cheaper prices of all new components the prices won't rise as fast.

For whatever reason the FV community can ignore the future but making invalid strawman arguments isn't a good reason to ignore it.

[VDF1]

Furthermore, when reading how to go faster books isn't better braking generally the last place one can expect to gain time over one's competitors? First you need a good line, second you need smoothness, and finally you can gain a few more tenths per lap with outstanding braking. How much an advantage is gained with disc brakes? FST competitors should be able to answer that question--do FSTs outbrake FVs by a large margin? The rules will no doubt be stretched, but even if they are, will the so-called advantage be significant? Couldn't any unsprung weight or rotational weight differences, if there are any, be accounted for some how?

I'm no longer in FV and will not race again, but I still love the concept of FV and don't have an axe to grind in this debate. Drum brakes are not difficult to adjust despite what some are saying, once one realizes that adjusting them to the last gnat's ass is a waste of your time. Just adjust them so they don't drag and you're good to go fast if you know how to do well step 1 and 2 above.

I think Jim is right.

[problemchild]

For what it is worth, for those that want steering racks, from someone who has driven FVs with boxes, and FSTs with racks ..... not worth the bother. Steering geometry with the trailing arm VW front suspension is easy with a box, but nasty with a rack. I was putting a box on the aborted FST car that I was building as I believe it provides much better geometry, I had some fancy rack designs but they would have been complicated and expensive. The racks and rear brake discs were the two parts of the FST package that were unnecassary (probably performance reducing) but attractive from a conceptual perspective. Of course, this is my opinion. Others may differ, but this would be on the bottom of my "to do" list for FV rule changes.

BTW .... Dirtcar Modifieds are the best racing on the planet, again IMO. They use steering boxes. Lots of young men running those. Lots more want to

Added later ... I guess my comments could be used as an argument for allowing the change. I would not be opposed. I just think its a complete waste of time. If we are going to endure the political BS of changing FV rules, let's make sure it lowers costs or includes more potential competitors. Switching to a tire rule where tires get bought once per year would be perfect! Falkens rock!

[SR Racing]

I agree on the rack. Making it optional is fine. People love the feel of the rack, but the geometry design issues don't make it worth the effort and it does nothing for perfomance. Boxes are cheap. No good reason to force a change. Probably the ONLY advatage is that it is typically a few lbs less. On some cars it might give you more foot room. The above is why the rack is OPTIONAL in FST.

In regards to the rear disc conversion. Again no perforamce gains, but for the cheap price it made no sense not to change. Especially since you are running the same wheels front and back. Drum breakage is also a non issue. (safety)
Some people might have considered the drum set an advantage. So the FST rules mandated rear discs. A lot of thought went into EVERY FST rule and they were all tested and priced and checked for availabilty. No doubt over the years we will find things that also have to be addressed to keep things in order. However it is clear to all the FST drivers that with probably over 1000 race entries, not counting test days and one off tests, that the FST rules package makes for a very reliable and more inexpensive class than FV. The hurdle is the initial investment. (and possibly the fact that we are a Regional only class.) If you don't want to make that jump, then stay FV. It will certainly be around for a while.

Another side note. Many/most of you have never seen an FST race (or maybe even a car.) We travel in packs at regional only races. It is hardly EVER when a offical doesn't come to us after an event and thank us for coming and putting on the best races(s) of the weekend. Due to this "packing" we often get more say in positioning and grouping of our class. Our association (FFDA) assigns a "promoter" for each event who arranges things with the event registrar etc. hospitality, etc. We have almost a dozen contingency sponsors and comraderee at the track is almost as tight as the races. Yep, we don't have a Runoff's, but we have our ARRC and it is just as fun and costs 1/10 the money. Also of note, we have been approached by other sanctioning bodies of interest. We must be doing SOMETHING right. I know that the above may not lend itself to FV in all cases for many reasons. But just wanted to point that out.

IMHO. The worst thing about FV (or even FST or even other classes) is the SCCA. The buracracy at all levels, the rules process, and a few other things ranks them right up there with the worst of the government organizations. That is why a strong independent organiation (driver's association etc.) can help. (To look at other sanctioningl bodies, rules process etc.) Also, staying a regional only nationally recognized class keeps us out of much of the badness of the SCCA.

[Terry Abbott]

Jim,

with ALL due respect Please don’t try and continue to sell us on the First ! We know all about them, you make very valid points about them, This is a FV discussion about minor, some say major changes to the future. I respect your opinion and appreciate your input about the parts that is what we need… parts info and pricing.

Maybe start a NEW thread about what the differences are between the two and NOT in the committee news section.

[hardingfv32-1]

Jim is not trying to sell parts. He is just taking the chance to remind the FV community that there is no plan for the future. The reference to FST is just an easy way to show what is possible and/or available. The average FV competitor does no appreciate many of the issues until something goes wrong with their car.

Brian

[Terry Abbott]

Jim is not trying to sell parts. He is just taking the chance to remind the FV community that there is no plan for the future. The reference to FST is just an easy way to show what is possible and/or available. The average FV competitor does no appreciate many of the issues until something goes wrong with their car.

Brian

Brian,

WE need to have Jim sell us parts....


the answer's are never easy

[SR Racing]

Terry, I am not trying to convert you to FST. That is your choice alone. I have just pointed out some of the things that FST has done that I consider sucessful. If I pointed out that I felt the the FF Fit was a good thing would you accuse me of converting you to FF? FV is FV and FST is FST. In FV you can chose any path you want. (or do nothing) We support FV (and most every class) with parts, services and free advice. We have no plans to change that. As a matter of fact Vintage FV seems to be growing significantly and we will continue to support them also. If I knew what all was helping to make the vintage class grow I would also offer those ideas also, With no intent of trying to convert you to vintage.

As I have pointed out here before, FST is a RISK to my net not something that helps. (Lower profits, far more vendors and more longevity.) I sell 2 to 4 sets of FV tires per year to my customers now. (Retail over $600) I sell ONE or possibly 2 sets to my FST customers (at less then $600). My apologies if you felt I was trying to convert you.

[SR Racing]

Just to show you that we support ALL classes, here is a pix of Dave Blevins FST being worked on with another class car in the background.

[ external image ]

Yep. That is Al Unser's actual 1992 Indy 500 winner. (Galmer Chevy) (not a copy or mock-up) Picked it up from the IMS Museum a few hours ago. (Along with 2 Vintage Alpha race cars and the original Duesenberg owned by August Duesenberg.
It's fun working here at SR's prep shop.

[ external image ]

[ external image ]

Ready to strap down on the Dyno. No we won't be doing any dyno runs on it.

I will have some more pics of it along with the Duse and the Alpha's on our web site Monday or Tuesday.

I know these are not FV's but thought you would might like to see them.. BTW, I am not trying to sell you guys on the Indy Car class or Alphas either.

[awhitston]

I think this is a very good discussion that we should continue in a constructive manner. There seems to be a couple of different issues. One being cost control and another being to improve entries.
As far as costs go, tires and entry fees are far and away my biggest expenditures. I dont know that anything can be done to lessen entries and are probably not that unreasonable considering the logistics of putting on an event. So if we are to have discussions about reducing cost I believe it has to start with options for tires. And yes i know this isnt the first time it has been brought up. I would definitely like to stay with a slick tire over a dot tire. Many have good relations with Hoosier and the same can be said about those with Goodyear I'm sure so maybe choosing one to make a spec tire is a non starter already. We also need to look at the fact that we run with F5 and/or FF most of the time and those classes seem to be getting faster as time goes on and it would unsafe to create more of a gap by slowing our cars down significantly. Just my thoughts on that. I'm sure many or even most are OK with current budgets and if thats the case then its not time to make a change on that front.

Andrew

[awhitston]

I think changes to our cars could make them slightly more appealing to potential drivers and I am completely open to changes to disc brakes, front beam etc. but if we want substatial increases to race entries we need to look at developing much better promotional strategies and do a better job of retaining new drivers. I went through drivers schools in 2009. There were 3 other new vee drivers that weekend. I am the only one still driving a vee this year and if it wasnt for the fact that I had my dads 30+ years of fv experience to draw from there is a good chance I wouldnt be around either. Perhaps if we all paddocked together it would be easier for newer drivers to get help and advice throughout a race weekend and build a better sense of community. This may increase interest amoung spectators as well.
The overwhelming percentage of the general american public has no idea that we exist. Millions of "car guys" dont know what a formula vee is. Serious karters never even consider driving a vee when transitioning to cars. We can change our cars all we want but we have to raise the level of awareness about the class to make a large difference.
There are air cooled VW shows going on without the presence of FV or SCCA. The same with import car shows that attract a younger audience. Just posting more incar videos on youtube can get exposure out to a larger audience. A better attempt at working with national and local media could be made. These seem like areas that would make the biggest diffence if we could put together an organized campaign. I believe vees offer the best bang for the buck in road racing. The closest competition and lowest cost. This should be enough to sell the class alone with the right marketing.
One last thought is that there are too many races at least in the cen div - great lakes area. There was thought into putting together a schedule of 4-6 races that cover the divisions that we could get drivers to commit to concentrate the fields. This should also be examined for next year.

Andrew

[brian]

Frankly, I think a lot can be done to reduce entry fees but until the drivers get as organized politically as the workers, not much will happen. Entry fees have risen over 600% in the past 30 years. That's nearly twice the Consumer Price Index. Yes, I recognize that track rental is the "elephant in the room," but the club has complicated itself so much that it takes way to many resources to run a race.

When one thinks of the hurdles that have to be cleared just to go to driving school, you can understand why we're not growing. By the time you rent a car, buy the gear and pay full price for a SCCA weekend, it's way over $2,000. Instead of spending 1.2 million in PR and advertising, maybe the club should be underwriting low cost schools.

If modernizing the current cars could really make a difference, we would have seen greater growth in the other VW based class. Truth is that even arrive and drive classes like Spec Maita and SRF are not growing either.

[SR Racing]

Yep, but...

Instead of spending 1.2 million in PR and advertising

They actually spent that on advertising? Where?

[smsazzy]

Yep, but...

Instead of spending 1.2 million in PR and advertising

They actually spent that on advertising? Where?

Probably the convention. Which is onlyt attended by themselves....

[jpetillo]

Personally, I think that if someone were to be turned off by FV due to the cars themselves (not the participants) it would be that "running an old bug engine" (whether it's 1200 or 1600 cc's) that is the big detractor. If you can swallow that, the rest of the components fall in line. I have not heard on person say, "hmm, a 60's bug engine is fine, but they run drum brakes, then no way!" It's like SRF - they look great. When I heard they run Escort engines, um, well, it doesn't sound so good anymore. If I swallow the Escort engine, then the rest would be fine - it's the formula.

I don't think that we've lost any of the young guys who've joined FV in our area because they ended up not liking the cars after a few years. Mostly drivers are hooked once they start FV - in my experience. I have not seen one new guy jump to another class. I do see the opposite, though. The cars are not the problem! I agree with Andrew and Brian, nobody knows about SCCA and nobody knows an FV from an SRF. A good way to get new drivers is to give them a way to take a school for well under $2000. To take a school you need your own helmet & gear. Let's say that's $500-1000. Then a typicaly two-day school - SCCA fee ~$350, then the car rental - Hmm, maybe it's already more than $2000. That's a lot for someone to test the waters. I have someone who wants to try driving FV. If I were to let him use my car for free, it's still too costly a thing to try since my gear won't fit.

So, how about rental gear? Aside from the helmets, used gear can be made available - maybe helmets too. Then, maybe we have a fund that helps pay for the rental from one of the rental folks. Maybe some of that $1.2M can be diverted. If you want to race motorcycles, you can rent all the gear and a bike. I see the CA Superbike School will put you through a day of classes on a new BMW S1000RR ($675) with gear ($75) for a day - that's more like it. And that's with a new $15,000 (?) motorcycle which is one of the fastest production bike you can buy. They do have a two-day camp, but that's more like a Skip Barber effort, and is more like $2200. The Penguin Roadracing school is $450 for a two day bike rental, and $160 for all the gear, and $560 for the two-day school - less than $1200! You then get to race the next day if you're certified.

Can we do something to help curtail this buy-in price and get more people to TRY FV? Has the SCCA tried something to make trying the sport easier on the pocketbook before? It seems like better PR than what they're doing now, since I've never seen anything about SCCA outside of being at the track at an SCCA event.

I may have strayed from the original thread, but I believe we have more significant hurdles than the formula of the cars in FV keeping people from joining.

[fvracer27]

Well said John I agree 100%

I am a new FV racer I took the school last year. I'll say that if I did not have previous racing experience in other forms of racing and already new I wanted to race a open wheel car it would have been very hard for me to take the leap to purchase the gear and car.

I know everyone keeps bringing up cost and I agree some things
Could be less expensive. I have race cars, motorcycles and karts all on different levels and it's racing.... It's not like playing kickball it's all expensive.

I love FV and I will be running one as long as I can

[tiagosantos]

Actually those are great points.. As much as I'd like some things to change with our cars, as long as I have someone to race with, I don't care what parts I have to run. I completely agree that we as a class could do better to attract people to vees, or rather, expose the class to a wider audience.

I'm sure most of us have cameras in our cars, we all have had great battles and awesome races, but it can be hard to find good footage on youtube. How about a section of the forum for videos, if we all try to post new ones every now and then? It would then be easier to find a great FV video to share with friends, post them on Facebook or whatever, your local VW or car enthusiast forum, etc.

[fvracer27]

Actually those are great points.. As much as I'd like some things to change with our cars, as long as I have someone to race with, I don't care what parts I have to run. I completely agree that we as a class could do better to attract people to vees, or rather, expose the class to a wider audience.

I'm sure most of us have cameras in our cars, we all have had great battles and awesome races, but it can be hard to find good footage on youtube. How about a section of the forum for videos, if we all try to post new ones every now and then? It would then be easier to find a great FV video to share with friends, post them on Facebook or whatever, your local VW or car enthusiast forum, etc.

Now we are talking.

If everyone had a go kart with a 5hp engine we could all have just as much fun