F1200

[problemchild]

Question from Bruce's minutes:
7. Comment: FV 1200 is growing in Canada. There has been an influx of new young drivers coming out of karts and into FV 1200. Can we investigate why the Canadian series is being successful in this area while SCCA appears to be less so. Why are these young drivers choosing FV 1200? We should find out.

There is no magic or secret. It is the same reason most of us started 30,40, 50 years ago.

It is cheap and it is competitive.

Most F1200 racers have 1 car, 1 engine, 1 transmission, 1 set of wheels. Most tow with an open trailer or with a very small (10 ft) enclosed trailer, often towed behind a car, mini-van, or small SUV. Normal budgets would include a winter engine rebuild and a new set of tires.

Like the old days, when they can afford more than that .... they go race FF. When they blow all their money, they come back.

When I hear FV people say that "young people are not interested", it is because we are trying to sell them the wrong thing. Tell them they can buy a $10K car and run at the front by spending $5K per season (including everything) ..... and FV will be growing.

Tell them "you need 6 sets of wheels, 4 transmissions, several engines, fancy shocks, fancy DA, big enclosed trailer, pit vehicles, truck to pull the trailer, room to park everything, latest intake manifold, rains, intermediate rains, wide fronts, narrow fronts, tall rears, short rears, etc .... and you get wealthy middle-aged men racing when their business is having a good year.

F1200 is successfully competing for the young enthusiast who is by-passing SCCA FV for SM and SRF. It is not about sex appeal or modern technology. It is because it is inexpensive, low-cost, cheap, or whatever word you want to use. It is $$$$$$$.

BTW .... you get racing like this. http://www.vimeo.com/6767735
Here is a typical race result. This is the final of 3 races on a weekend. 17 cars started the weekend, 2 were eliminated in a earlier crash, but most of the field was competitive with each other. Mine was #86. Video was from 2nd place finisher McMurray. Most of the top 8 are under 25, several under 20.
Vallis Cup Race #3
1 80 Eric Barrett 1:44.148
2 16 Andrew McMurray 1:43.286
3 35 Michael Iamundi 1:42.501
4 5 Keenan Harris 1:43.781
5 73 Phil Wang 1:43.489
6 157 Andre Bonaldo 1:43.822
7 37 Shane Viccary 1:44.672
8 86 Daniel Bassett-Rodrigues 1:44.553
9 29 Eugene Cartini 1:47.157
10 13 Tony Thornton 1:47.698
11 18 Aaron McCauley 1:44.852
12 19 Kyle Kosir 1:43.508
13 33 Carlo Triolo 1:43.256
14 58 Bill Mitchell 1:43.083
DNS 44 Taylor Near
DNS 76 Carl Woychuk
DQ 11 Sam Ashtiani 1:47.146 (yellow flag pass)

[rcarmody]

Very nice Greg I totally agree with you. I hope the f1200 guys do not have to deal with the manifold issuse hopefully the guys will see whats going on down here and stop any problems before they start. I know when I ran the series I had a blast up there great racing and a lot of fun, maybe should rethink about running down here and go back it would be nice not to have too worry about tires and and tranny changes.


Ray Carmody
Scca Member 1985
115107

[problemchild]

Yes Ray, unfortunately we are preaching to either the converted or uninterested. It does not appear that the majority of National FV drivers give a crap about the future of FV. The future is their next race .... which is how we got here in the first place.

With plans to give National FV drivers the voting power for future changes, I expect we will be going to non-SCCA events for spec tires and old-time "vee racing".

Cheers!

[jpetillo]

Greg, I snipped out parts of your post just to keep this shorter.

There is no magic or secret. It is the same reason most of us started 30,40, 50 years ago.

It is cheap and it is competitive.

Most F1200 racers have 1 car, 1 engine, 1 transmission, 1 set of wheels. Most tow with an open trailer or with a very small (10 ft) enclosed trailer, often towed behind a car, mini-van, or small SUV. Normal budgets would include a winter engine rebuild and a new set of tires.

Like the old days, when they can afford more than that .... they go race FF. When they blow all their money, they come back.

When I hear FV people say that "young people are not interested", it is because we are trying to sell them the wrong thing. Tell them they can buy a $10K car and run at the front by spending $5K per season (including everything) ..... and FV will be growing.

Tell them "you need 6 sets of wheels, 4 transmissions, several engines, fancy shocks, fancy DA, big enclosed trailer, pit vehicles, truck to pull the trailer, room to park everything, latest intake manifold, rains, intermediate rains, wide fronts, narrow fronts, tall rears, short rears, etc .... and you get wealthy middle-aged men racing when their business is having a good year.

F1200 is successfully competing for the young enthusiast who is by-passing SCCA FV for SM and SRF. It is not about sex appeal or modern technology. It is because it is inexpensive, low-cost, cheap, or whatever word you want to use. It is $$$$$$$.

Greg, very good points. Thanks!

On this forum, I keep hearing about the high cost of FV racing, but I don't know many that are paying half of what some have been suggesting, and they are quite competitive. I'm talking regionally, not nationally. I think on ths forum we need to stop overdramatizing the costs of FV in the US and simply tell it like it is. People starting can easily pay $6-7K for a competitive turn key car with trailer, where others are saying that this is needed for just an engine. I know some folks that paid quite a lot less for their cars and can run top four. Yes, you can certainly find someone who would sell you a $5K+ engine if you were looking for it.

I guess I should be embarrassed to say that I am around the price point of "they can buy a $10K car and run at the front by spending $5K per season (including everything)". I will go out on a limb and suggest that most of the NE region is in this category. Maybe that's why are fields are decent sized.

Now, that's not to say that things are perfect and fine as is, and that we can't do it for cheaper and perhaps have bigger fields, but we do need to stop telling people that an engine will cost $5K+ when they don't have to pay near that.

People will visit this forum and if they read what we've been writing will stay far away from FV. I know I would have. When I viewed this forum before buying a few years ago I heard no such claims, thankfully.

Also, I completely agree with you that young drivers are looking for outright cheapest cost to get into racing and I would say that this counts much more heavily than sex appeal. Actually a big deterrent to me was the cost of getting the gear and safety equipment I wanted - that included a HANS. People can correct me if I'm wrong here, but in the NE, maybe 1/4 - 1/3 of our FV fields are under 30 or close to it. Maybe other classes are doing much better but I don't see that by the hair color I see waiting in line at registration.

But, I think what I just said for young drivers is the same for drivers at any age. I think we need to prioritize how we go forward in FV as follows:
1) Do what we can to keep the current drivers
2) Do what we can to attract new drivers of any age
3) Do what we can to attract new drivers of young age

Greg, I know that what I said was not quite the point that you were trying to make, but it supports some of it and provides another point of view.

John

[fvkartguy]

More on the promotion ideas:
http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... =24&t=3238

I completely agree... I'm glad I heard about the forum AFTER I got into FV.
I LOVE this class, but if I had seen the forum beforehand, I would have thought "these guys are having problems" (parts, rules, etc)
I think we need to get the word out there that this is a GREAT class and show that we have awesome competition throughout the field, like at the runoffs... except for first of course.
I'm willing to sacrifice some time and effort if it means we get a few more people at the races.

[FV80]

John and Barrett,
I'm certainly GLAD to hear that at least someone has actually taken the time to see what FV is all about and ignored (or at least, paid less attention to) the naysayers on this forum. The class *IS* a great class ... engines do NOT have to cost $5 - $7k (tho some do) and it's NOT impossible to be "competitive" without spending $2000 on an intake manifold. Can you SAVE $$$ by "scrounging parts from a junkyard, or (old) VW shop? YES! do you HAVE to do that ?? No! We can (*I* can) still get pretty much anything I need from several vendors via the web. Pistons and Cylinders are an exception, but I can't think of anything else I can't order 'standard' over the internet. Might be a CHINESE knock off, but it's a part that (generally) gets the job done.

Please hang in there and help us to solve the (relatively few) problems that we seem to have.

I have heard several comments that "we" (basically the Committee and FV Community) IGNORE input from those who suggest that we make radical changes to the class in order to make ourselves "more 'inline' " ?? I should point out that THIS IS FV!! The majority at *ALL* of the meetings that we've had - all at the Runoffs or FV B'Day parties, admittedly (where else can you get 50+ FV racers together at one time??) have indicated that the VAST majority of current participants favor maintaining the class AS IT IS as much as possible. It *IS* a great class. It IS possible that YOUR input did not generate a rules change - it doesn't mean that is was IGNORED - just that you were a significant MINORITY in the overall picture and therefore, your suggestion was not acted on. It still doesn't mean we don't care - it means that the MAJORITY (that respond) don't seem to agree with you.

Someone else (somewhere?) mentioned that you ( a newbie) can buy an older FC car for the same money as a "competitive" FV. I guess that's true - you will go faster in your FC (if you're a decent driver), but you WON'T be competitive by any stretch of the imagination - at least not without putting a WHOLE LOT MORE $$$ into that car. I designed and built my own FV back in 1989 - that same car finished 7th at last year's Runoffs - a 19 year old car! (about YOUR age eh, Barrett <G>!) FV is one of the ... no, I'd go so far as to say the ONLY class in SCCA where you can race a car that old and still be "competitive" at the top of Nationals. And I have NEVER paid anywhere close to $7k for an engine! (but I AM a cheap skate scrounger <G>). If I had deeper pockets .. who knows, I MIGHT pay that kind of money - but not because I HAVE to... it would be because I have more $$$ than TIME - *NOT* my present/past/ or likely future situation.

Can we do anything to improve things? Sure - and we're working on that. But CHANGING the class to something that is really not FV isn't the answer (IMHO <G>).
[flame protective suit *ON* - you CAN'T hurt me ]

Steve

[jpetillo]

Steve, that's very refreshing to hear from you. I'll add that I have had no problem getting anything I needed from the vendors advertising above. Although I'm doing more of the repair and prep work myself as I have the time and learn about the car, I haven't had to resort to scrounging. John

[remmers]

Steve, you forgot to mention it was a 19 year old home built car. I suppose you could say I'm another one of those success stories, Although I didn't buy a car, (just used my dad's) I placed no lower than 2nd in my first 3 races and was qualifying at or near pole all year long. My budget was somewhere in the vicinity of $900/race weekend (3 of the weekends were double events) and I would say that's all the more I needed, with the exception of I would have liked to have bought two new sets of tires over my 8 race season rather than 1 set, but I made do. I look forward to doing more of the same and when I can afford it, I'll probably make a bid for the runoffs on the same sort of budget.

[problemchild]

I answered the question.

FV, IMO, has become something unlike FV that I started in. If it was still that, it would be growing like crazy. Instead, it is merely dying slower than some other classes.

The F1200 guys have maintained what FV was. I am proud that I had the foresight 30 years ago to be part of a group that instituted spec tires and then started a F1200 Association 25 years ago. It is unfortunate that the climate never existed in the US. It still does not today.

FV is a group for old men having fun. As Steve points out, he is fine with that. He goes racing by himself for 6 races per year. If he is lucky, Donnie shows up and they have a 2-car race. I am sure he wishes he had the competition he had 25 years ago, but he does not think in those terms. As I said above, I think 90% are happy as it is. That number is that high because all the youngsters and free-thinkers have left long ago. The remaining 10% just have not accepted that.

I have not seen regional SCCA FV racing like that video in 25 years. There may be only a few Nationals with that depth of competition. The F1200 guys do it 6 times a year. Why would anyone want to take lessons from them when SCCA FV is the best already?

Cheers!

Ps .... Please do not consider my comments as an attack on Steve or anybody else. We disagree and I realize that I am a minority. Low-cost and competition are my interest. If I could afford to, I would be racing SM or SRF. My recent re-exposure to F1200 has shown me that my vision of FV is viable and would have a great future. I can hope but I do not think that SCCA FV can fix itself. This will not happen because most do not think it is broken.

[CitationFV21]

FV, IMO, has become something unlike FV that I started in. If it was still that, it would be growing like crazy. Instead, it is merely dying slower than some other classes.

The F1200 guys have maintained what FV was. I am proud that I had the foresight 30 years ago to be part of a group that instituted spec tires and then started a F1200 Association 25 years ago. It is unfortunate that the climate never existed in the US. It still does not today.

[Edit]

I have not seen regional SCCA FV racing like that video in 25 years. There may be only a few Nationals with that depth of competition. The F1200 guys do it 6 times a year. Why would anyone want to take lessons from them when SCCA FV is the best already?

Cheers!

Greg,

Your wrong.. and right.

The reason you don't see racing like that in the US is becuase we have two many races. Here in the NE alone, we can have over 14 races in the NARRC series over 10 wekends. Throw in the others and you have about 20 weekends to chose to race. However; at the Cheap Date at NHIS we had 20 cars. At the NARRC Runoffs we had 16+ entered. Here we have to compete for track time with 33 other groups, all lobbying for track time. A seperate race group is usually not a possibility, even with 25 cars.

Your 25 year window is also off. BSM (Before Spec Miata) we had 25 - 30 car races at Lime Rockin the 90's, and the Glen still pulls in good fields for the Fun One. I know the F1200 group has had it's struggles too so we all go through good times and bad. Now throw in NASA, EMRA and FCCA and you spread out the competitors too thin.

Now I do agree on a spec tire, just how do you run this across a Club that is Nationwide? If I had that answer I would be KIng

And even a spec tire does not solve the problem of entry fees - how much are you paying up there?

Congratulations on having a super group of racers, but the model may not be as easy to "export" as you think.

ChrisZ

[jpetillo]

Greg, I'm not sure I came to the same conclusion based on this thread that you did, but you certainly have raised some good points.

I'm not sure any class in SCCA is growing like crazy. It would be good to know how we fare against other SCCA classes for growth. So maybe this is an SCCA problem and not solely an FV problem - unless we find the wisdom to separate from SCCA. That would be quite an undertaking due to the diversity of regions and racetracks across the nation.

But, you suggest that FV1200 in Canada is apparently healthy. So, I'd like to understand that more closely. Before we get into the formula differences, specifically, we probably need to understand racing in Canada. Let me ask a few questions to understand the demographics. We also need to answer the same questions for FV in the US.

1) How many regions are there that run FV1200?
2) How far does it span across the country?
3) How many racetracks are used - what are the racetracks?
4) How many total registered FV1200 drivers are there?
5) What is the population of FV1200 drivers by age?
6) How is FV1200 made known to the new potential drivers?
7) What are FV1200 association and what makes it work?

What else do you think is important? I didn't think about this in great depth before writing.

If we are to adopt some of what FV1200 is we need to understand the demographics and why it works. Then that would help us understand what parts of it might benefit SCCA FV in the US.

I guess I'm interested in how the kart guys come to FV1200. In my region, there is no venue where either of these folks are in the area at the same time. Well, I'll take that back. There is an endurance karting school at LRP where there may be a SCCA race weekend happening that weekend. I think that's a rare occasion, though. How do you think it happens in Canada?

Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks,
John

[problemchild]

I answered a question posed at the meeting. I am sure Ray, Randy Smith, Dave Watson, Jim Hallman, etc can all offer their insight. We have suggested these names before but no one ever asks them .... just says that somebody should investigate F1200.

Much of the F1200 success is situational rather than brilliant leadership.

I said "I have not seen....."

I realize that there are healthy pockets of FV racing. Summit Point and West Coast (with the spec tires) are two that I know of. I do not live near those areas. FV racing at the Glen and Nelson Ledges is what I have to compare to. At those two tracks .... 25 years ago there were 20-30 car fields with more races on the calender.

Cheers!

[problemchild]

I have never said anything is growing like crazy. F1200 is maintaining.

[jpetillo]

I have never said anything is growing like crazy. F1200 is maintaining.

Greg, sorry about that. I'll edit my posting if it lets me. I try to be careful, but sometimes time limitations get the better of me. That's not an excuse and I'll try to clean up my act.

Even if FV1200 is not from great leadership, if it works we owe it to ourselves to understand why and consider if some aspects are applicable to FV
SCCA.

John

[problemchild]

John,

I gave my answer to the question posed. Ray Carmody agreed with my conclusions. We are the two with the most F1200/SCCA FV experience. We were criticized for being too negative.

I am not a statistician or an economist. I cannot answer your new questions, I am sure that they could be analysed and any number of conclusions reached.

An overview: F1200 is primarily a Southern Ontario (Toronto) class. It is very much like the WDC group of FV racers. Active leadership around a major city within a successful motorsport community. There were about 25 active drivers this year. There are 3 or 4 tracks used with Mosport being the dominant track. Like the Carr/Pastore support for NEDIV drivers, F1200 has Bill Vallis who does engines, trannies, fab, prep, rentals, etc. The F1200 paddock is full of 40-50 year old men, but they are there to wrench for their kids.

When I (like most FV old-timers) started, there were three options for young working-class racers. FV, rotten old tin-top, or spectating/crewing. I did not want to race FV but I could not afford anything else. F1200 has maintained that role in their local racing community. It is F1200, cheap old SS/IT style closed wheel car, or nothing! With racing like in that video, F1200 is not a hard sell.

IMO, I have much more hope for FV than most of the people in this class. I do not want it to survive as a class where 3 FVs show up to drive around as mobile chicanes in the "wings'n things" race group. Unfortunately, FV racing has become that in much of SCCA. Many people from areas with such FV racing are now speaking up to make sure no one makes it better again. They seem to have forgotten what FV once was.

I think that people that want "old-time" FV racing are very likely to end up in F1200, FRSCCA, or with other non-SCCA groups. The strong Michigan and Illinois SCCA FV scenes are gone and the strong VSCDA scene has replaced them. These trends will not change with another five years like the last five.

Cheers!

[jpetillo]

Greg, thanks again.

Yes, I see that you were just responding to the question from Bruce's minutes. I wasn't looking to put you, personally, on the spot to answer all those questions I posed - we should find the answers as a community - but expected that you had several of the answers to them, and by your response you did. You're completely right that folks can pull any conclusion they want from any piece of data. But, why FV1200 is working in Canada may not be reproducible in the US even if we followed the same formula. That was why I was trying to understand the demographics, because that's what will make it work or not. I think this is what Chris was saying when he said it may not be exportable. That being said, I still think it needs careful consideration and agree with Question 7 from Bruce's minutes.

Also, SCCA FV is working fairly well in some regions in the US and not in others. These regions also need careful consideration to understand why they are healthy. Perhaps the NE isn't as good as FV1200, but I think it's strong. And that's with playing by the same rules as other regions in the US (although, some regions agree on using spec tires, for example).

By the way, when you say 25 active racers in FV1200, is that the average number that shows up at each track, or the number of total racers that will race at different times throughout the year? We should try to come up with a definition so that we can get this information from different regions.

So I guess the information that should be considered by the community is to try to understand the demographics of the different SCCA regions (including FV1200) and how well they are working and see if there are any commonalities that support the stronger regions.

I hope I’m not coming across negative. I’m just trying to understand the situation so that we as a community can make a more informed decision.

John

[FVartist]

I've read enough and have come to the conclution that I am not in favor of turning FV into a spec class.

[Matt King]

Uh, it pretty much is a spec class already, unless you have found a way to run a different engine, transaxle, beam and brakes. Do you think the current rules allow so much widespread creativity that a spec intake or tires would ruin it?

[problemchild]

F1200 is FV with spec wheels and tires. Similiar concept as the A/R tires on West coast FVs. They wear better and do not require rain tires.

[FVartist]

I beg to differ. FV is a restricted class. The engine, trans, brakes, wheel rims, tires, manifolds, make and chassis, suspension all have options. Even the beam has options.

[remmers]

the beam? how so? i thought that was linkpin only.
And nobody's saying we should go to a completely spec package throughout the whole car, we're just trying to spec the parts that offer a large performance gap per dollar spent. ($1200 manifolds, tires only good for about 4 heat cycles before they're no longer competitive up front vs a whole season.) Part of the game plan is to retain the competitiveness of the current cars vs new cars built under new rules packages.

[FVartist]

The link pin beam is required, but there are either the new ( heavier) or original ( lighter) beam, some say stronger, I know that is debateable. You can choose to leave stock or add adjuster(s). You could cut off the bump stops. Spring packs can be configured many ways. Thickness of sway bar. These are options.

I understand about the manifold, I just don't want to have to replace something I already paid for that works well. The cost of a spec manifold may be inexpensive to some, however I have to add the cost of my manifolds, since they will no longer be legal. As for tires, you have to understand those that receive free tires have spent more than most in time and money. Most have a long history in successful Runoff participation, as such, have earned them. I am a proponent of a spec tire at the Regional level. Done correctly, it does work well. Trying to do this Nationally it eliminates a goal that some strive to achieve.


Bruce

[FV80]

...I understand about the manifold, I just don't want to have to replace something I already paid for that works well.... Bruce

Just to make sure that what the intention of the Committee is - a Spec Manifold would be an OPTION - that would hopefully flow just a bit better than the best you could make from a stock core. At this time, we are not suggesting that existing manifolds be declared illegal. We are just thinking that if you could buy one that was BETTER than ANYTHING out there - or that COULD be created out there - for a *WHOLE LOT* less $$$$, we might all be a lot better off. I envisioned that most 'top' Vee racers would opt for the Spec - then they could sell their existing manifolds to ... "less than top" or "CheaperSkate" racers at a significant discount - I'd pick HALF the cost of a Spec to start. Some of those 'passed on' manifolds would be better than others, but the price would plummet like a ROCK! When the cost of a manifold gets into the range of the cost of ONE tire, then EVERYBODY would be able to have a 'top dog' manifold and run at the front (if that was the only thing holding them back <G>).

Of course, all this is predicated on being able to produce and sell a Spec at something around the $400 mark or so. We are trying to get more info from the people who produced the Auzzie manifolds, but are having some trouble contacting them.

Also, of course, *IF* it appears we CAN get this done for the price point, it would still have to be put out by the CRB/BOD for member input .

Steve

[brian]

Greg, you didn't answer the question about entry fees. How much does it cost to buy into the F1200 series? School, entry fees and required gear.

[FVartist]

How long would an existing manifold stay legal if a spec manifold is approved? How would you control existing manifolds from further development? Use the manifold preparer suggestion? If so what is the need for a spec? How would you know the limit of existing manifolds, so the spec would be better? How does one compare to an unknown? If the existing manifold is developed to be better, will a new spec be manufactered? How will a spec be controlled Nationally?

I could not sell mine knowing it would be illegal soon, even if i disclosed it. You've said a spec will devalue an existing, I agree, since they will eventually become illegal, the cost of anyone's must be added to the spec. This is not cheap, especially to those with more than one (1). Without a spec there is no manditory cost added.

These are some of my reasons why I am opposed to a spec manifold and support the suggestion from the manifold preparer's.

Bruce