July Meeting

[Dietmar]

The FV Ad Hoc Committee met on July 22

Members attending: Steve Oseth, Stevan Davis, Bruce Livermore, Mike Kochanski, Dietmar Bauerle
Guest: Fred Clark

Old Business: The extended oil sump proposal has been published in Fastrack and is open for member comments. Your opinion, whether for or against the proposal should be submitted in writing to the CRB. Bruce Livermore has again posted on the Interchange the address and a suggested format for your letter to SCCA. This may be found in the Tech Tips section under “Oil Sump Rule Change”.

Continuing Discussion: The future of FV was a major topic on the Interchange this past week and was a major subject of discussion by the committee. Although some might feel that this is a “new topic” needing immediate attention, the FV Committee has been thinking about this on and off since it's inception in 2003. In fact one could say that this was the reason the FV committee was created. Over the years, many possibilities have been tossed about and evaluated, and we continue to agree that there is no simple solution.

As an aside, it might be noted that the Committee has successfully addressed a number of parts and rules issues over the years. However, whenever we suggest any attempt to modernize or “evolve” the class, we generally receive negative feedback from the FV community with the message that we should leave the class as is. A possible exception was the poll we took on whether to go to spec tires where we garnered a nearly 50/50 split.

The concern(s)- the basis for our ongoing discussions and somewhat supported by the recent poll on the Interchange - seems to be not so much the availability of parts but rather the increased costs associated with finding and/or manufacturing the parts which are often times referred to as “unobtainable”.

In the interests of continuing these discussions both within the committee and in the FV community as a whole, the Committee gladly would accept suggestions from the members over the next few months as our discussions continue. If you have a viable solution to maintaining FV, please e-mail me with your comments (just click on the "Engines by Dietmar" banner) and I will compile the information and pass it on to the committee members. It might also be of benefit to hear what specific items you have had the most difficulty obtaining.

Although not directly related to FV, we did spend some time hearing about the new Formula Ford (Honda): proof that there can be alternatives- it may be just a matter of finding the right one(s)

No other items were presented or discussed.

Next meeting is scheduled for August 26

[jpetillo]

Dietmar, Thanks for the post about the July meeting. I like what I hear - very encouraging. This is a great way to deal with these issues. We need more input than just the handful that regularly post to the forum to understand what the community wants to do, and I hope your request will get most people to send in comments and questions that we'd like to find answers for. Thanks, John

[sabre1]

Dietmar,

Thanks to you and rest of the committee for your efforts on our behalf.

-Jim

[remmers]

As an option other than spec tires, has street radials been considered? This would allow people to run whole seasons on a single set of tires, including dry and rain races. This has been used for years up in Canada with great success. Perhaps limit the tread wear and require it be a Z-rated tire, but leave the brand and model tire open. I think the big losers in going to a spec tire or to street radial tires would be Hoosier and Goodyear, unless one of the two were picked to be the spec-tire's manufacturer, of course. Pro a spec tire would be that it's a dedicated race tire that's been designed for our race cars. A pro for street radials would be the price, as I would imagine it would cost more for a set of spec tires than going onto, say, tirerack.com and picking up a set of performance summer tires. Downside to street radials would be possibly wanting to move up to a different wheel, like the ones used in solo vee, since I can't imagine we'll be able to find high performance tires with a 165/175-ish treadwidth.

Just something I figured I'd throw out there and see what people thought.

[hardingfv32-1]

Work your spec tires at the local level first, say using Regional Supp rules. If it is even possible, it will be easier to sell with the more cost conscious regional racers. If it works for everyone at the Regional level, then you can try for something at the Nat level. Start small and get a handle on the politics of the situation.

Brian

[problemchild]

Work your spec tires at the local level first, say using Regional Supp rules. If it is even possible, it will be easier to sell with the more cost conscious regional racers. If it works for everyone at the Regional level, then you can try for something at the Nat level. Start small and get a handle on the politics of the situation.
Brian

In other words .... do nothing!

Or let somebody else do it!

I am reintroducing a FV to the track that has not raced in 5 years. I am also putting an 18 year old in it. Great news right?

Nope .... We are going to Canada where they have spec tires ..... and growing fields with newbies under 30. Imagine that!

Coincidence .... I wonder?

[remmers]

I agree with Greg on this one. NER tried that a bunch of years back with CFV (Club Formula Vee). We never got more than about half a dozen people to try it and it died off in approx 2 years. We'd be better off making a hard-and-fast rule change than wasting time making a branch-off class that dies before we get any data. Worst case scenario, we try it for a handful of years and change the rules back. Far less slow and painful a process, and will only cost people who roll over sets of tires from year to year a little money upfront.

[problemchild]

Thanks Brian,

What I think really does not matter in itself. Dietmar comments above "A possible exception was the poll we took on whether to go to spec tires where we garnered a nearly 50/50 split."

Brian. Before your time here, there was much discussion and a poll taken. Since then, nothing. We have delt with a stupid intake manifold issue that has collectively cost the FV community about a $100K .... just to maintain the status quo (Thanks other Brian).

It seems bizaar that the committee holds meetings and invites input, but the input just gets put on a shelf so that we know that 50% of the community wants change to the tire situation. If the committee will not deal with an issue that half of us feel is important, who will?

If nothing else ..... lets get a minimum rear tire diameter rule in for 2010. These stupid little rear tires are just tearing up engines and wasting everyones money all over again.

[remmers]

you mean like running the front tires in the rear that some people do to get a little bit more rpm without changing boxes? or are people running some absurd undersized rear tire?

[smsazzy]

San Francisco region runs a spec tire for regional racing only. As does Oregon, and Northwest Region. All regional racing is done on the American Racer tire. All national racing is done on Hoosier and Goodyear.

SF region has very strong regional fields, and National racing is doing relatively well in the NorCal and Pacific Northwest. SF region regionals have typically had between 10-20 cars each race, and as many as 30-40 cars at certain tracks. This year, those numbers have gone down due to the economy. But I think will bounce back.

This proves that you can indeed start running a spec tire for regional racing. Just add it to the regional supps.

[remmers]

How are the American Racing tires in terms of grip level and longevity? I think the spec tire we ran for the CFV class was a Goodyear that was just a slightly harder compound (65 as opposed to the 55's that were the norm at the time, if I recall)

[jpetillo]

I agree with smsazzy. It seems that some regions in the US and the Canadians are running spec tires and that apparently is working for them. If this is the case, I don't see why the committee needs to get involved and help get a spec tire rule for the nation. I think we should let regions deal with the spec tire issue as their members see fit. Some regions - perhaps very few - are doing well with new young and old racers without the spec tire rule. John

[hardingfv32-1]

SOMEONE is going to have to do a lot of leg work to get a spec tire approved for FV. Using this board will be of almost no help. It will take a lot more effort than that. This is all about politics. It is not the Vee committee's job to do this leg work. They will help you with the tire selection issues and the actual rule. All the easy stuff.

The Regional first model worked on the West Coast. The SFR did it first and was joined by the North West regions. The people doing the leg work had no interest in go to the National level, so it stopped there. If you can't get it sold in NE, why should the National level competitors be interested?

Remember, the National competitors are the most active purchasers of tires and there is absolutely no consensus about a spec tire at this point.

It is time for someone to stop the wishful thinking on the net and start doing the actual leg work.

Brian

[CitationFV21]

Hi,

Before anyone starts thinking about spec tires, I have just updated my FV spec tire page.

http://pages.cthome.net/czracing/FVspectire.htm

If has anything they would like to add, please e-mail me at

cmz55-chrisz@yahoo.com

Thanks

ChrisZ

[smsazzy]

I, for one, do not want a spec tire in National racing. I am happy to support a spec tire for Regional competition, as is done in the west.

I like to be able to pick the tire I want to run. I also like to pick the compound depending on conditions. I also like the quality of the tire we receive when GY and Hoosier are competing against each other. I think National racing SHOULD be the higher level of racing and if you want to start things like spec tires, do it at the Regional level. (and in my opinion keep it there)

I am not going to say I would walk away or anything rash like that if a spec tire was passed, I wouldn't. I would just be disappointed.

To answer a previous question, the American Racer tire is not bad. It is about 2 seconds off the Hoosier tire, but will last for 12 heat cycles or more, only falling off about .5 seconds in my experience.

I have 1 set that I hang onto in case I want to run a regional race.

In the case of a Nat/Reg race weekend, I just run the Hoosier in Practice and Qualifying and don't return to the scales so I am DQ'd. I am not running for regional points anyway, and only use the sessions for track time and testing. If you wanted to run for points, you can just switch tires. We all do that anyway between sessions, right? The cost of an extra set of rims should be covered by the cheaper price of the tires.

Also, while I am on the topic of tires......Listen to an F1 race these days. They all complain about the quality of the tire they receive since they went to 1 tire supplier. What is the motivation for Bridgestone to improve the tire? Nothing, no competition. No matter what tire they bring, they win. And that is in F1! They really would have no motivation to improve our tire if we had 1 supplier of a spec tire.

Just my $0.02, your mileage may vary, don't shoot the messenger, and all that stuff.......

[CitationFV21]

In the case of a Nat/Reg race weekend, I just run the Hoosier in Practice and Qualifying and don't return to the scales so I am DQ'd. I am not running for regional points anyway, and only use the sessions for track time and testing. If you wanted to run for points, you can just switch tires. We all do that anyway between sessions, right? The cost of an extra set of rims should be covered by the cheaper price of the tires.

Since you brought it, up I hope, if the Hoosier tires are that much faster, that you go to the back of the grid if you run the regional race - right?

Also, while I am on the topic of tires......Listen to an F1 race these days. They all complain about the quality of the tire they receive since they went to 1 tire supplier. What is the motivation for Bridgestone to improve the tire? Nothing, no competition. No matter what tire they bring, they win. And that is in F1! They really would have no motivation to improve our tire if we had 1 supplier of a spec tire.

I have not heard that in years. There was the Michelin problem at Indy (remember there were TWO tire suppliers at that race), but the only complaints since then were individual teams not coming to terms with tires at various tracks - not a problem. Yes, Goodyear had a problem at Indy in NASCAR, but that was due in part to limited testing. In the SCCA, FF messed up when they picked the wrong tire for their first spec tire (too soft), but that was not the tire companies fault - I don't think anyone in Club Ford would want to leave the H60s or Goodyear 600, that particular regions run.

If you look at having 2 tire companies compete against each other, it only makes the racing more expensive. Goodyear vs anyone in F1, Goodyear and Firestone in Indy Car in the 60's, Goodyear vs Hoosier in NASCAR. Goodyear and Hoosier in FV - remember the skinny Hoosiers made for Road Atlanta that didn't work anywhere else? Cost me about $1000 in tires that year***..... Today, with very few exceptions, Pro Racing is ALL spec tires.

There is no reason a tire should be any different than a piston, a brake drum, or a steering wheel, except it has a shorter wear life.

ChrisZ

*** Since then Hoosier has provided an excellent tire, but the cost of a set of tires has just continued to climb - development costs money.

[hardingfv32-1]

Chris

So what is holding back the spec tire program in the NE?

Brian

[smsazzy]

Listen to last weekends F1 broadcast. One of the drivers was interviewed and he said (I am paraphrasing) The problem with having only one tire manufacturer is that no matter what kind of tire they bring, they're going to win. That sums it up right there.

As for running the regional, I don't usually run the regional race, as they are typically scheduled after the national out here. If I did, I would start from the back. Also, regardless of finishing position I would not report to the scales or pull off on the last lap anyway to not effect the points for those guys.

As for picking the wrong tire, why was it too soft? It might have been perfect for us out here in Seattle. It is often 50 degrees when we're racing in May. Until this year, all our nationals in the NorPac region were in March and May, sometimes the first weekend in June.

A great spec tire choice in Seattle, would be a horrible choice in July in Houston, or August in Atlanta, but maybe a good choice for Wisconsin in late September.

If you pick a tire that is too hard, that puts me at a disadvantage as I will have run my entire season in low grip, then if I decided to go to Southern California or back east for a race where it may be hot, my car could be completely different. At least with multiple compounds I can switch between them for testing.

[Doug Carter]

Listen to last weekends F1 broadcast. One of the drivers was interviewed and he said (I am paraphrasing) The problem with having only one tire manufacturer is that no matter what kind of tire they bring, they're going to win. That sums it up right there.

If all cars in the race are Formula Vees, a Formula Vee will definitely win. I haven't heard of that too much in F1, but the NASCAR guys gripe when it's not perfect for them. But GY always listens to the racers and steps up with the best product for the best racing.

If you pick a tire that is too hard, that puts me at a disadvantage as I will have run my entire season in low grip, then if I decided to go to Southern California or back east for a race where it may be hot, my car could be completely different. At least with multiple compounds I can switch between them for testing.

A spec tire is the same for everyone. Usually a hard compound, too, but the same for all nonetheless. If it's difficult to drive for you, it's just as difficult to drive for your competitors. Find a better setup for that tire and you'll beat the others with the same supply.


Spec tires are just a way of leveling the playing field, as well as cost containment. If the tire is consistent and does not fall off like a super soft tire, you can use a set of tires a lot longer, and the need for stickers to be at the pointy end of the grid are not necessary. People who insist on buying them en masse, won't be at as much of an advantage as they would with an open tire rule.

The fast guys will still be fastest and the slow guys will still be moving chicanes, but the guys who can't buy stickers every week will have a better opportunity to compete. The bell curve just gets shallower and makes the field more even across the board.



I'm for spec tires in most low level formula classes, as long as the tire is a good one, that performs consistently for a decent amount of heat cycles, is cost effective, and can be purchased easily through many sources. And only if those factors are met.






doug

[CitationFV21]

Chris

So what is holding back the spec tire program in the NE?

Brian

If I knew that, I would be king.

Seriously, there were several groups:

1. "I buy my tires from National guys and a spec tire is actually more expensive to me" - FV guys are cheap - we have tire machines (Harbor Freight) in our garages, we scrounge tires from other competitors, we don't mind flipping and treating old tires - of course my opinion is that the competition is uneven - he is on this years 4 heat cycle tires, I am on last years 8 heat cycle - the next guy is on 12 cycle treated tires from who knows when, etc. It would be nice to spend $500 at the beginning of the year and know you can go 4 - 6 races (assuming 20 heat cycles which is possible) on a set of tires.

2. Variation - " I don't want to invest in special wheels and setup and no be able to run out of region." EMRA and the Canadian clubs are self contained and the rules are the rules - In the SCCA, you have NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, MARS (Oh by the way -for a while MARS tried different spec tires - I would like to hear what they did) all running at the same tracks with different rules. So you might get NARRC and NER points but if you are from NY and NYSRRC does not recognize Club Vee etc.

3. "I don't want to be on a hard tire becuase it is hard to drive and not as much fun." I will get in trouble here, but most of those people were backmarkers. Here the new softer tires kept them out of trouble. Bill Noble won a National on the VROCs, they took a few laps to come in but were not bad compared the tires of the time. I assume tire technology has crept forward, so the gap would be bigger to day comparing the 45B(?) to the old VROC.

4. "I don't want to split the class. - we have too many already." I think this is the difference between running for a championship and running to win. Each has it's good points. If 20 drivers got together at the beginning of the year and made the rules they would run on, that would be one thing - the rules have to come from the drivers not the organization - If I made a mistake, it was assuming that people would see how good the racing was on a spec tire and want to join. We ran Club Ve as an experimental class - it ran for a few years and the drivers who ran it liked it - just was not enough of us.

5. Hoosier dropped the 60 series and VROC tires - This was tough - without a spec tire, how can you have a spec series?

Ironically, right now with the economy like it is, you would think it is the perfect time for a spec tire, but that is working against us, not enough people have money to do any racing, much less commit to a series. Most are picking up and running their old inventory.

CHrisZ

[CitationFV21]

Listen to last weekends F1 broadcast. One of the drivers was interviewed and he said (I am paraphrasing) The problem with having only one tire manufacturer is that no matter what kind of tire they bring, they're going to win. That sums it up right there..

One sore looser does not make a race series - what about a Brawn diffuser.....what advantage did they have?

As for running the regional, I don't usually run the regional race, as they are typically scheduled after the national out here. If I did, I would start from the back. Also, regardless of finishing position I would not report to the scales or pull off on the last lap anyway to not effect the points for those guys.

As long as you have a gentlemans agreement not to protest each other. Long time ago I ran with a guy who had a 1300 in his car and he disqualified himself from the finish - but the 10 laps he held me up might have screwed my race - If you are not legal - you shouldn't race.

As for picking the wrong tire, why was it too soft? It might have been perfect for us out here in Seattle. It is often 50 degrees when we're racing in May. Until this year, all our nationals in the NorPac region were in March and May, sometimes the first weekend in June.

A great spec tire choice in Seattle, would be a horrible choice in July in Houston, or August in Atlanta, but maybe a good choice for Wisconsin in late September.

If you pick a tire that is too hard, that puts me at a disadvantage as I will have run my entire season in low grip, then if I decided to go to Southern California or back east for a race where it may be hot, my car could be completely different. At least with multiple compounds I can switch between them for testing.

In the NE we run in the 30s at NHMS in April to 110 degrees at Lime Rock in July (but not this July ) The last race we were on slicks when it started to rain - finished on slicks in pouring rain - It is tough to pick a spec tire for the entire country - but there are at least 3 or more classes that have it already: Spec Miata, FE, Spec Racer Ford and Formula Mazda(?) The problem seems to be heat cycles and as long as there is competition to go faster, there is no competition to or reason to make them last longer. A spec tire has to be tested and the manufacturer has to agree NOT to change the compound without long term notice. That said, spec tires make more sense for Regional Racing.

ChrisZ

[smsazzy]

As long as you have a gentlemans agreement not to protest each other. Long time ago I ran with a guy who had a 1300 in his car and he disqualified himself from the finish - but the 10 laps he held me up might have screwed my race - If you are not legal - you shouldn't race..

You apparently missed my point with the part where I said I usually do not race the regional. I was trying to convey from the spirit of my comment and attitude that I would not effect the points, that I don't effect the outcome either. As I previously stated, I only run regionals for track time and testing.

In the NE we run in the 30s at NHMS in April to 110 degrees at Lime Rock in July (but not this July ) The last race we were on slicks when it started to rain - finished on slicks in pouring rain - It is tough to pick a spec tire for the entire country - but there are at least 3 or more classes that have it already: Spec Miata, FE, Spec Racer Ford and Formula Mazda(?) The problem seems to be heat cycles and as long as there is competition to go faster, there is no competition to or reason to make them last longer. A spec tire has to be tested and the manufacturer has to agree NOT to change the compound without long term notice. That said, spec tires make more sense for Regional Racing.

Spec Miata keeps changing their spec tire as they can't agree on the right tire. Spec Miata is not a good example of a class that is controlling the cost.

That said, spec tires make more sense for Regional Racing.

My point exactly! I couldn't agree more! SS

[brian]

It's my understanding that the pro spec tire goes to the highest bidder and has nothing to do with cost containment or competition. The money a tire company puts up goes into the price money pool.

[CitationFV21]

Just for historical perspective:

http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles ... turer.html

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns03573.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6565 ... -or-hazard

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 03,1873164

Now I am not suggesting that Hoosier or Goodyear will make and unsafe tire for FV, but I just got back from the Lime Rock National. Now I have been hearing good things about the Goodyear tire but was surprised to hear from one driver that the tires don't work on his car and he would have to do testing to make them work. What is the cost of every year having to redevelop your car to run competitively, and could that money be better spent elsewhere?

ChrisZ

[jpetillo]

I believe that all the high-price spec tire series like F1, MotoGP, etc., have several tire compounds available at each race. The available compounds are chosen different for each track to suit that track. But, the problem they have is that not everyone's chassis works with the spec tire. The tire company chooses the compounds for the majority. This is a problem that they can only try to address. Some can't get the car to work well with the tire.

For us, we'd simply get one tire. About us tuning our chassis to fit the tire, if F1 can;t do it at times, then some of us won't, either. But, between the time it would really take and the expertise it would need, what percentage of regional guys could seriously do this?! I'm not saying that for this reason regions shouldn't have a spec tire rule. But, I think we're kidding ourselves if we think the average regional guy can tune his car to work with different tires. We would just take what we get and deal with it.

John