Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

FV80
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Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by FV80 »

Discussions about a spec tire are running rampant these days, but I would like to get some responses about allowing an ALTERNATE tire in FV - it would be a treaded radial of your choice and could be mounted on ANY rim with the following restrictions.
1). Must be wide 5
2). Must weight at least 12 lbs.
3). Must be no wider than 6 inches.
The tire must be DOT and at least H rated.
Same size must be used on all 4 corners.

Greg proposed something similar over on Apex, but I like this idea better and wanted to see what the response is. With my proposal, there will be NO SPEC TIRE, but it should reduce the cost of racing for those that want cheaper racing. It would seem that a SPEC TIRE may not really be what is needed - although any group could get together and select one. I believe that with this open policy, the BEST tire would soon start to show as well as the BEST wheel configuration (meaning width and offset). It would appear that the Canadian spec wheel has a 'bad' offset for our cars, so I'm not in favor of ruling out using a wheel with a better offset. The better offset would mean less wear and tear on our spindles and bearings. Allowing ANY wheel with restrictions, also allows for the possibility of find a tire that fits our existing wheels if one chooses.

This alternate tire/wheel combo instead of a spec tire, also leaves the current tire/wheel configuration for those that wish to stay where we are performance wise. No one has to go out and FIND and CHOOSE a SPEC TIRE that just MIGHT NOT WORK OUT LIKE WE THINK. Having options allows for a lot of flexibility and also allows people to try different things to see what works best. We've talked about the lap time difference between the current tire and the Canadian spec. IMHO, the time difference between ANY DOT tire/wheel combo will be considerably less than the diff to the current slick tire, except maybe for running some DOT treaded tire on our current wheels.

Also ..ALLOWING this alternate, will enable people to run Majors if they wish and that should help to bolster the small open wheel group and get bigger FV fields. Who knows??? Maybe we could even grow enough to get our OWN group even though we might effectively have 2 "classes" of FV's out there at the same time - the speed differential would be WAY LESS than what we are faced with now.

I think we need to do this before we rush into a SPEC TIRE situation that no one likes.
What's your opinion?

Steve, FV80
edit .. added same size DOT Tire
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
BLS
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by BLS »

Steve, for what it's worth, I agree. A limited range of wheel and any tire that fits as long as it is DOT, as an approved alternate. All 4 the same with appropriate speed rating.

I sure think those 15" Empi five wides look good...
Barry
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by brian »

We currently have the option to go to an alternative tire via regional agreements. The alternative tire has been used in several regions but has not gained any nationwide traction. I see this suggestion as the "do nothing" option. I'm under the impression that if enough folks want a spec tire, it will apply to all levels of racing and be all across the country.
Last edited by brian on August 19th, 2015, 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
mikehinkle
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by mikehinkle »

I like the idea of allowing it as a alternative. I'm sure if I wanted to I could put Falken's on my car and ran locally anyway but officially allowing it may help it gain some traction
and get a few different sets in front of people to help them come up with their own opinion on the topic. I think anything to reduce the cost of the class will help more racers
be able to make the jump and keep more racers going to the track instead of picking and choosing which events they will attend. If 3 or 4 guys start running a radial in my area
I will adopt it Falken or not. I am heavily in favor of the Falken because it allows the Canadians and challenge cup drivers to intermix.
fvracer27
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by fvracer27 »

mikehinkle wrote:I like the idea of allowing it as a alternative. I'm sure if I wanted to I could put Falken's on my car and ran locally anyway but officially allowing it may help it gain some traction
and get a few different sets in front of people to help them come up with their own opinion on the topic. I think anything to reduce the cost of the class will help more racers
be able to make the jump and keep more racers going to the track instead of picking and choosing which events they will attend. If 3 or 4 guys start running a radial in my area
I will adopt it Falken or not. I am heavily in favor of the Falken because it allows the Canadians and challenge cup drivers to intermix.
There is less than 20 Canadian drivers running the F1200 series and if we are lucky 5 will attend US events, So don't count on numbers increasing just because we choose to use the same tire package. How many Canadians came to the U.S. To run the callenge cup series? How many U.S. Drivers went north? These are small numbers.

I believe there is a better wheel tire package out there if we must have a spec tire. The survey I thought was pretty clear most want a spec slick on current wheels.
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by gbrianmetcalf »

I have a set of wheels and Falken tires ready for the Challenge Cup in 2016. I also have slicks and stock wheels. I like this proposal as it allows for innovation and growth, it also allows those running this option to run majors. The ability to choose will help both camps.

What is the "good" offset for a FV racing wheel?

JMHO
G.
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by BLS »

I see this suggestion as the "do nothing" option.
Brian, I don't see it that way. If the "region" does not have a plan, one cannot run an alternate wheel/tire unless you enter as FS. This way allows everyone to run in any region and in the "majors". We don't lose racers that have no desire to run on anything other than slicks, we run in the same group, and it allows for some individual experimentation to occur prior to creating a one spec only tire. It creates two classes within the same class, those on slicks and those on DOT. Maybe after a couple years a consensus will occur as to what combination is a good spec for everyone, maybe not.

In my opinion it will lead to increased car counts. In any event, increase or not, it allows some to save the money on tires and have someone to race with on equal footing. And have straight wheels :shock:
Barry
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by gbrianmetcalf »

http://vwcatalog.empius.com/vwcatalog/2014/216.html
I think these are real awesome looking wheels and they are 12 pounds each. Combine these with a set of sticky DOT tires and I think they would be a good option.

G.
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by mikehinkle »

Mark,
I am in favor of anything that is cheaper then the current tire. A spec slick is the easiest possible solution because its more of a middle ground then anything else. I much rather a spec slick be adopted then nothing at all but I would still vote for Falken's I just do not see the draw backs to the tire and it cuts a major cost of racing down which makes the class that much more accessible. Will it really put any more cars on the track? I don't know but it will put me on the track more often. I have never driven on them and would like to try them for myself but from what many others have said is they feel just fine.
Rvrrat
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by Rvrrat »

Love the idea of an alternate wheel/tire package, but I would caution against leaving the wheel/DOT tire open for everyone to bring something different to the track - even with the limitations you suggested. I am a fan of the Falken package and have truly enjoyed running it on the West coast. Introducing yet another option will not get us any closer to coming to an agreement nationally. The NE already runs with the Canadians and if we continue to promote the Falken option for those who wish to try it (or are more cost-conscious) the better off we will be. I believe if we had the option to run a harder compound Hoosier or the Falken package, you would have a larger turn out and appease more people. I also like the idea of a sub class within FV. We already do this within VARA where we have 3 classification of FV - allowing for a race within a race. Everyone walks away happy because they are on an even playing field with the group they are racing with - and you have larger fields so you can have single class racing. Love it.
jstoezel
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by jstoezel »

Hi:

I have been racing on Falkens since 2010, in events sanctioned by the Western Canada Motorsport Association (WCMA). I would like to share my experience.
I haven't run anything else on a FV, certainly not slicks. I can't provide a comparison between the 2 types of tires. I do see benefits though for SCCA to run an alternate street tire though.

The benefits I see have been already discussed, this is what comes to my mind:
- One size front to rear, which means equal amount of wear if you rotate the tires around the car,
- One tire type for dry or rain. Though you will want your best tires in the rain. Depending on track conditions there will be a significant difference if you use your dry set in the rain. I keep my spare tires as a rain set,
- Cheaper tire choices,
- Larger resale market. At the end of the season I sell my tires to autocross guys or random guys on CL, typically for half the price I paid for the tires new.

There's been discussions on the life of the Falken tires. My experience is that they last 5 race week-ends in the prairies. That's 30 races, 10 practices and 5 qualifyings. Most if not all competitors here get a new set at the beginning of the season. Certainly the front runners do.

A bit of history on the Falken with WCMA. I started racing with WCMA in 2010, the switch to the Falken happened a season earlier. I was around the club at this time though, this is what I recall.
Up until 2008, WCMA used 14" Yokohama Advan tires. These tires got discontinued in 14" and for the 2009 season WCMA was looking for new tires. The choice was limited in 14". At the end of the 2008 season, one of the guys bought a set of Toyos I believe and tested them for a couple of sessions. The tires were very sticky I remember, and might have been too soft for the track we run on. Another guy found the Falkens, they were cheaper and harder, and he convinced everybody to race on them. The reason for WCMA to have gone with the Falken at the time were:
- it's cheap,
- it's hard enough to last a full season and,
- well... there's not much more choice anyways in 14" size.

In October of 2009 some of the F1200 guys contacted members of WCMA with regards to tires. The Kumho r-compound they had been using got discontinued as well and they were looking for a replacement. By this time WCMA had run a full season on Falkens. The F1200 tried the Falkens, I remember exchanging emails with one of the F1200 members who was asking about the rating of the tires. He was wondering how good the Falkens were really, considering the "Kumhos are rated 50 AA/A while the Falkens are rated 200 A/A" (I never checked the info, I'm just quoting). I'm not sure what other tires they tried, but they adopted the Falkens for the 2010 season and on until now.

The choice for 14" rims is unfortunate and goes back a long time I believe. It leads to having to build custom wheels (yet another custom part in a low cost class) which are of dubious quality (I remember reading on Apexspeed a post saying they come pre-bent from the factory).
14" tires is not a thriving market either and whatever tires are chosen will most likely be discontinued.

My opinion would be that 15" tires would seem like a better solution. There's rims available and much more tire choice. At least more volume and a tire model is less likely to be discontinued. A wide range of compounds are available, from soft to hard, at affordable prices. We've had informal discussions between WCMA members, that 15" rims would make for easier tire choices. We are stuck with the momentum since everybody has some money invested in 14" rims which have no use for anybody else except for FV people in Canada (i.e. we can't sell what we have to switch to 15", there's no market for it).

Regards,
JS
Last edited by jstoezel on August 20th, 2015, 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by hardingfv32 »

A dual or optional tire wheel rule is a completely unnecessary. Allowing the FV Committee to 'study' is a complete waste of time. The FF spec tire process toke a good 9 months. We do no need the FV Committee wasting valuable time on a pointless option... and one that the CRB would never approve!

1) The Majors are for competing at the highest level of Club racing... not for participating. We pay a lot of money to maintain this restriction.

2) I know West of the Rockies Regional SCCA FV racing is gone. FV racing exists only at the Major level and none of the current participants would dream of using DOT radials. No retired regional level competitor is going to pay Major level entry fees just to get track time. A test day is a much better value.

3) So you run a illegal wheel package at a Regional event... what slick runner is going to make the effort to protest you? No official is going to even notice. When was the last time you ever saw any FV protested for a car violation at a Regional race? If you want to participate on DOT radials no one is going to stop you.

This whole idea is not worth the Committees limited resources.
Brian
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by FV80 »

Brian,
I totally disagree with you. My plan has nothing to do with allowing the Committee to STUDY anything. It just allows more people to experiment if they choose. I've been looking at 15 inch tires available and there seems to be a pretty decent looking 165 x 45 x 15 tire from Nankang that might be fun... as well as a few others in that area of size. As Jean posted above, 14 inch tires are pretty scarce and the likelihood of any selected SPEC TIRE disappearing from the market is high. It will take some experimentation to come up with a "best" option. I can't think of a better way than to allow anyone to try whatever they like within reason.

In case you haven't noticed the FF Spec Tire issue is FAR from resolved. There is significant concern in the Community about whether or not a spec tire can be chosen that will satisfy the needs and wants of the drivers. As many have pointed out... race tire companies are in business to MAKE MONEY from a very limited target market. Building an FV tire that will last a season would mean TOOLING UP to sell as few as ..what ?? 300 sets of tires?? I imagine Hoosier is not very far up on the PROFIT curve already. With enough tire sales, small profit still works. Reduce the tire count down to 1/10 and where is the incentive? Being the "owner" of a long lasting Spec Tire contract is still not profitable unless the cost of the tire goes up substantially. THAT'S what makes the DOT street tire affordable. Their market is NOT racing.. it's a pittance of their market, so the cost is relatively cheap ... and they don't CARE how many they sell to racers.

As for NO ONE being interested in NOT WINNING, I also disagree with that .. especially the younger crowd. Do they WANT to win ?? SURE - do they EXPECT to win... I really hope not .. at least in the short term (unless they come in with a WAD of talent, experience and cash). When I started in FV, I was simply THRILLED with the ability to GET ON THE TRACK AT SPEED ... at least to start. "Racing" wasn't really in my sights as much as "going fast on a cool track in a cheap car". After a while ( A LONG WHILE in my case), I started to think a little more about COMPETING .. but I was hooked LONG before that time came. I went (gradually) from Competing.. to Contending... and then finally to WINNING. Each of those steps required a greater commitment on my part. There are MANY that would like the 'go fast' part .. there are fewer that are willing to put forth the effort and $$ to take that next step .. and the next .. and the next (and even some that just don't have the talent or $$$ .... but still have a BLAST from the track time).

YOU are obviously obsessed with the front of the grid (as am I .. for the time being), but everyone is not that way. In SEDIV, a few years ago, we had the largest contingent of "Regional" drivers around .. many of those were previously "National" drivers that just decided they did not want to continue to commit the effort and $$ that it took. So they 'backed off' to the regional level and had a GREAT time - spending WAY less money and time, but enjoying the heck out of it. Time passed and we lost a few due to various issues and eventually the divisional events came to ALL OPEN WHEEL groups .. then we lost most of the rest of them due to the significantly increased RISK factor.

My proposal is intended to allow "that type" of driver a (safer) place to go and race where they don't have to contend with FA and P1 closing rates of ~50+ MPH. If they can come "race" at a "lesser level" for a LOT less money, in a field of cars not much different than theirs, then why not let them. It also serves to increase the small formula car fields and help us HOLD that 2nd formula car group in SCCA racing. As has often been stated about SM and SRF .. the big fields provide a place for "racing" all the way down through the field. EVERYONE cannot win FIRST.. but they can "win" by beating someone else of similar passion and dedication further down the grid.

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Matt
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by Matt »

Items that I would like to see.
1) DOT treaded tire
2) Can be used in both wet and dry conditions
3) Can use present steel wheels

Matt
BLS
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by BLS »

3) Can use present steel wheels
Matt, just curious, why the desire to use the current wheels? With the 4" width, a DOT radial will be very narrow and the difference in slicks and the wider DOT tires on a 5.5" width rim will be much greater. Plus, for a reasonable price you get straight, good looking wheels.
Barry
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by fvracer27 »

BLS wrote:
3) Can use present steel wheels
Matt, just curious, why the desire to use the current wheels? With the 4" width, a DOT radial will be very narrow and the difference in slicks and the wider DOT tires on a 5.5" width rim will be much greater. Plus, for a reasonable price you get straight, good looking wheels.

Because most people all ready own 12 and in some cases 34 ;-)
Mark Filip
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by BLS »

Because most people all ready own 12 and in some cases 34
I certainly understand that. The problem as I see it, the DOT tires available for a 4" width wheel are not going to work very well. As far as I know you could already run any tire on the standard VW wheel as long as it is not a radial slick.

D. Any tire size may be fitted, except that ungrooved radial race tires
(radial slicks) are not allowed.
Barry
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by fvracer27 »

BLS wrote:
Because most people all ready own 12 and in some cases 34
I certainly understand that. The problem as I see it, the DOT tires available for a 4" width wheel are not going to work very well. As far as I know you could already run any tire on the standard VW wheel as long as it is not a radial slick.

D. Any tire size may be fitted, except that ungrooved radial race tires
(radial slicks) are not allowed.
I totally agree

I think if a spec tire is a must than the logical option would be a spec slick from existing molds that Hoosier already has to fit wheels we already have. Remember FV is not a spec class which is if I remember correctly the reason that last spec tire poll was not acted on.
Mark Filip
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by hardingfv32 »

FV80 wrote:My plan has nothing to do with allowing the Committee to STUDY anything....

In case you haven't noticed the FF Spec Tire issue is FAR from resolved
Your plan will never fly with the CRB... too Mickey Mouse. If someone wants to experiment it is extremely easy to have the local Region modify their Supps. No one planning on this kind of experimenting is going to be the type that ventures beyond his local region. You can count on one hand the people who would be prone to such experimenting... there is a cost involved after all.

The FF Spec tire is very close to a successful completion. Just like FV... The main goal is a tire that reduces costs from the current level while maintaining performance. A tire that lasts 2X as long is a 50% cost savings over the current situation.... sounds like a pretty health saving to most current competitors. Everyone is not going to be happy.. so what. They can always go the Regional Supp route to get what they want.

Hoosier knows that a DOT radial is an option for FV. They are happy to make a more durable tire. A tire that lasts a whole season... probably not. Hoosier is pretty confident that current participants would be unhappy with the performance of a tire that could last one season. Remember the VeeRock never caught on. They are happy to do a small run of the current slick with the SM7 compound on it for evaluation after they see your Spec tire proposal.

With the CRB.. Formula/SR and FV committees making their decisions on a monthly bases and then communicating that to the next level.. things do not get processed very fast. Any chance the FV Committee could take up the FV Spec tire issue before the CRB requests your help? It would be nice to start saving some money in 2017.

Brian
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by gbrianmetcalf »

Can use present steel wheels
The present wheels are part of the problem. Finding a straight set of 40 year old wheels are getting harder to do. I am a new driver that doesn't have 30 sets packed away. Plus most 15" performance tires require a minimum of a 5.5" wide wheel. If I understand Steve's proposal he wants people to experiment with different wheel and tire combinations to see which may work best. The 4" width of the stock wheel handcuffs the people that want to try this option.

Mr Harding: It is my understanding that you do not race in FV, and your son does but isn't really that interested in it. Am I correct? If so do you really have a dog in this hunt? If not please allow the current drivers to voice their opinion without you interjecting your continual condencending dialog. There has been interest in this option from people at the pointy end of the current pack of drivers. So to quote a Disney song "Let it go"!
Thank you.
JMHO
G.
Matt
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by Matt »

Barry

It is just to preserve the present investment in wheels.

Matt
hardingfv32
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by hardingfv32 »

gbrianmetcalf wrote:
Can use present steel wheels
The present wheels are part of the problem. Finding a straight set of 40 year old wheels are getting harder to do. I am a new driver that doesn't have 30 sets packed away.
I suggest that you spend some time & money like the rest of the old times and start acquiring an inventory of all parts... that is if you are really here for the long haul. You expect us to make it easy for you at our expense?

I do not think the majority can be sold on the DOT radial option. That is condescending dialog? I want a spec tire as soon as possible to reduce tire costs. A this point that means a more durable compound slick for the majority of participants.

ANY TALK OF SOME OPTION TO ALLOW EXPERIMENTATION WITH OPTIONAL WHEEL/TIRES IS A CLEAR INDICATION TO THE CRB THAT FV DOES NOT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THEY WANT FOR A SPEC TIRE. THIS KILLS ANY HOPE OF THE CRB MOVING ON THE SUBJECT.

BRIAN
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by BLS »

THIS KILLS ANY HOPE OF THE CRB MOVING ON THE SUBJECT.
Brian, I understand your thinking, but I don't think it is correct. As an alternate, approve a wheel size, and any DOT tire that will fit (maybe some tire limit). Simple and effective. The slicks will be faster and not threaten anyone that doesn't want to race on a DOT tire. I don't think it makes anything unclear to the CRB. It is basically the same rule we have now, just a different wheel that will fit the commonly available DOT tires. The current wheel at 4" width will not.

If there were an absolutely clear alternative slick tire that would at least double, and better triple, the current life without any dropoff, I could be persuaded the alternate is unnecessary. I don't think that tire exists. I don't think that tire can be made unless it is so close to a DOT tire compound that it makes no financial sense for the manufacturer.

An alternate wheel, with a DOT tire only, is not confusing at all.
Barry
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by gbrianmetcalf »

I suggest that you spend some time & money like the rest of the old times and start acquiring an inventory of all parts... that is if you are really here for the long haul. You expect us to make it easy for you at our expense?
Evidently the words "alternative or optional" escape you. This proposal will not affect the "old timers" stockpiles of rims. It allows everyone a less expensive option. I don't want the other DRIVERS to make it easy for me. With your attitude it's no wonder younger drivers don't want to join our group.

Sorry to the rest of the drivers for engaging in this dialog, with Mr. Harding.

G.
brian
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Re: Alternate tire/wheel for FV?

Post by brian »

There's a interesting announcement in the most recent fastrac regarding spec tires. While the SRF tire has been decided, the FF tire process and survey results are shown and the choice has been put out for membership input on the CRB link. This is the final step for FF and when the results go to the BOD, it's very likely the FF tire will be approved and go live in 2016.
Here are the links to the BOD minutes and the CRB notes.

http://www.scca.com/downloads/9144-15-f ... ember-bo-d

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/sc ... 1440094756
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
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