Just don't get it!

[problemchild]

Not surprisingly, the FV racers are withdrawing their entries.
My interests as a FV enthusiast and SCCA member are in direct conflict. FV needs to fix itself. SCCA needs to fix itself. FV cannot wait for SCCA to fix it as SCCA has its own restructuring to worry about. FV racers need to select a control tire, eliminate any potential rule creep and cheater potential from the rule package, then present it as a unified iniative that SCCA can support and institute. If that cannot happen in the short-term, then FV needs to find other organizations that can facilitate FV racing. This is essentially what has happened in S2000 where many more S2 cars race in vintage racing than SCCA. The important thing is that change needs to happen NOW!

Greg,

It sounds like you have a plan to fix all this. That's wonderful news. You could certainly request this be changed by proposing a rule change.

Here is the site to submit a letter:
http://www.crbscca.com/index.php

From there, the letter will go to the FSR Committee, then to the CRB and out for member input. Make sure you get all the like-minded SCCA racers you can muster to write in supporting the change. If enough support is shown through the letters then the rule changes will be recommended to the board, who will very likely go along with the recommendations. It is extremely rare that something would get recommended to the board re: a specific class and not be adopted.

Obviously, Stephen knows that the process is broken and only political power-plays succeed in effecting change. He seems to be venting his frustration with the system by mocking SCCA members who have given up. The SCCA system is out-of-date and incapable of effecting real change. It is unfortunate that a few lost souls keep hoping for a miracle.
We need a political power play. Congrats and thanks to ChrisZ who is actually trying to do something to help. We know it is bad when we cannot even maintain a decent FV race group in New England.

[smsazzy]

The process actually works very well. It is the same process all classes follow. FF allowing Honda power started with a letter.

Whining and complaining, calling names and making wild accusatory statements on the internet??? That works about as well as it has for the last couple years on this board.....

The process is the process, end of story. It is a very simple statement: If you want change, write a letter.

If you want to pass time by posting on the internet, I guess that is fine too.

You talk a big game, but I'm yet to see you actually LEAD. Instead, you sit back hiding behind a keyboard and take shots at the people actually trying to help the class through ACTION.

[problemchild]

[quote="smsazzy"]The process actually works very well. It is the same process all classes follow. FF allowing Honda power started with a letter.

[quote]

That was going to be my example of how to do it. It was a power play! A group of people had an idea, working to research and fine-tune that idea, gathered significant political support from the most influential people, then announced it as an organized lobby which pushed it through. I don't know if an actual letter was actually presented, but it was a formality if so. Letters do not effect change. People communicating with each other effect change. People that promote writing individual letters, without organized support, are just preventing progress by promoting a system that has failed the FV community.

I would argue that the discussions on this and other forums has contributed significantly to informimg members of the FV community of the problems and potential options and has done much more for individual FV racers than SCCA or it's people. Unfortunately, many with power and inflence, would prefer the rank and file were uninformed, and spend their time putting down those trying to inform, rather than discuss issues. Smazzy continually derails any positive discussion by shifting focus to me rather than the issues. Brian just refuses to discuss issues and blames the economy.

Once again, the issue is:

FV racers are being forced to race in Formula Alphabet in most of the country. This is dangerous and provides an unfulfilling experience for the FV Customer. Two things are happening in response. Steve Davis is aggressively informing other classes about the problems from the FV perspective. FV racers are staying home. Surely there is more that can be done!

[tiagosantos]

Funnily enough, even though you and smsazzy are continuously butting heads, I'm not sure that your opinions are terribly different. I have a feeling that with some mediation and a couple of beers (strong ones), you'd both be working towards the same goal. You obviously have different approaches to the same problem, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Group hug?

[problemchild]

Funnily enough, even though you and smsazzy are continuously butting heads, I'm not sure that your opinions are terribly different. I have a feeling that with some mediation and a couple of beers (strong ones), you'd both be working towards the same goal. You obviously have different approaches to the same problem, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Group hug?

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm inline at the DMV with a problem that is ongoing, and the clerk just keeps telling me to fill out a form. I fill out a form, nothing happens, so I come back 3 monthes later, where I'm told to fill out another form. About a week later, I get mail telling me that my form from 6 monthes ago has been received, and is now in the system, and may or may not be reviewed by someone with authority to advise somebody else that may be able to look into it. In the mean time ......
Real business does not operate like this. If they have a problem, they act, they fix it, or lose money and close the door. I keep hoping, that if we can keep the discussion going, some fresh smart guy will come along with vision and drive to find a way to effect some real change. That will require moving past the failed system currently doing nothing.

Like at the DMV, I don't need a hug. I just want someone to be actively seeking solutions.

[problemchild]

Once again, the issue is:

FV racers are being forced to race in Formula Alphabet in most of the country. This is dangerous and provides an unfulfilling experience for the FV Customer. Two things are happening in response. Steve Davis is aggressively informing other classes about the problems from the FV perspective. FV racers are staying home. Surely there is more that can be done!

[smsazzy]

Tiago,

You hit the nail on the head. Greg just doesn't seem to get it. I am for disk brakes, and supported the spec tire idea. I even wrote the last letter. I have also written letters trying to get the weight increased. All I'm asking for is Greg to put his money (or time in this case) where his mouth is (or keyboard I suppose in this example).

Ironically, the guys he keeps blasting on the forums (namely Steve Davis and Brian McCarthy) are not adversaries to these ideas. He is fighting the wrong group. However, I know I speak for a lot of people when I say, I'm sick of reading the constant complaining and negative posts with a refusal to take some action. Constantly name calling on the internet with wild accusatory conspiracy mongering gets nothing done.

It's time to start writing letters, not name call.

[problemchild]

I'm not blasting Steve Davis. He is attempting to do something about the problem.
I offered to run and financially support a control tire test program.
I recently offered a $500 prize to SCCA FV racers who could beat our top Canadian racers on a proper tire.

Once again, Smazzy shifts the thread from any potential positive discussiuon about FV, to me. He has sabatoged a thread that had some positive discussion going from people like ChrisZ. Way to go! Mission accomplished!

Who cares if we think each other does not get it. It is not about either of us.

If Smazzy, or anyone else, believes in spec tires, then find a way to make it happen. Create a plan. Develop that plan. Line up 50-100 people who will support that plan. Align your group and plan with key political SCCA people. Determine the best people to "front" that plan....... Then write and submit a letter that can be supported by your group and more. Work the SCCA and FV communities to make sure it gets done. I was part of a small group that did just that in Canada in 1980, and worked hard to keep it going for the first decade. It is absolutely possible but must come from the FV community as the SCCA has it's own life support issues to deal with.

Now, its Smazzy's turn to ignore the topic, bash me, and tell us to write letters. My DMV analogy was so true, was it not?

[rcarmody]

FV racers are being forced to race in Formula Alphabet in most of the country. This is dangerous and provides an unfulfilling experience for the FV Customer. Two things are happening in response. Steve Davis is aggressively informing other classes about the problems from the FV perspective. FV racers are staying home. Surely there is more that can be done!

Your right Greg it will not get any better until someone comes up with a plan that everyone can agree on. Right now with SR closing its doors LRE already closed parts becoming hard to find not sure where FV will end up. I know guys will say Samba.com for parts my problem I have the guys that I take care the new and upcoming guys, what to order a part and have it sent, they do not what used parts or have to sandblast and paint check for cracks or straightness. Its time to try and make things right. I love FV racing and would love to see it go on forever but its time for some changes. I see the committee has tabled disc brakes and balljoint front end this is a start lets see what happens hopefully everyone will jump on board and push to make this happen. To all committe thank you for all your work for the best class of racers in SCCA.

Ray CarmodyFV81
115107

PS check out fall series challange cup.

[smsazzy]

I'm not blasting Steve Davis. He is attempting to do something about the problem.
I offered to run and financially support a control tire test program.
I recently offered a $500 prize to SCCA FV racers who could beat our top Canadian racers on a proper tire.

Once again, Smazzy shifts the thread from any potential positive discussiuon about FV, to me. He has sabatoged a thread that had some positive discussion going from people like ChrisZ. Way to go! Mission accomplished!

Who cares if we think each other does not get it. It is not about either of us.

If Smazzy, or anyone else, believes in spec tires, then find a way to make it happen. Create a plan. Develop that plan. Line up 50-100 people who will support that plan. Align your group and plan with key political SCCA people. Determine the best people to "front" that plan....... Then write and submit a letter that can be supported by your group and more. Work the SCCA and FV communities to make sure it gets done. I was part of a small group that did just that in Canada in 1980, and worked hard to keep it going for the first decade. It is absolutely possible but must come from the FV community as the SCCA has it's own life support issues to deal with.

Now, its Smazzy's turn to ignore the topic, bash me, and tell us to write letters. My DMV analogy was so true, was it not?

You win Greg. I shall step aside and allow you to fix the class now. I cannot wait to see your organized group and political campaign. I really hope you are successful in uniting the class and bringing hope and change to Formula Vee. Please let me know what you need from me.

[SR Racing]

Right now with SR closing its doors LRE already closed parts becoming hard to find not sure where FV will end up..

Got your point Ray, and it is valid. But.. We (SR) aren't closing the doors on FV. We will continue to sell parts until someone buys our inventory and continues on with the FV / FST part of the business. It is still a good business, I just want to retire.
As we speak, we have 2 potential buyers who would continue FV sales.

[Chris Elwell]

...
PS check out fall series challange cup.

During the birthday party this year, Ray mentioned he was considering running the Canadian tires in some of our series races (which has events at the Glen and Nelson Ledges). I would also run those races on Canadian tires and Greg Davis seemed to think it was a good idea as well. If a few more people would make the initial investment for the wheels and tires it could convince more SCCA guys to start using them for SCCA regional races. Nothing is going to change on the tire front until people start putting Canadian tires on SCCA cars and running in SCCA sessions.

How many other people would be interested in running Canadian tires in select regional races? If anything, those tires would slow us down enough in the corners that slow FF/F5/FST won't get in the way as they sometimes do and screw up our race. And the tires would last 2-3 seasons in the process.

As a side note, I have a lot of friends in their 20-30s that dump a lot of money into street cars. The antiquated design of FV is the main thing that keeps them away or looking at SM if they are interested in road racing. If it wasn't for my roommate in college having a FV and making friends in the class by going with him, I would be racing SM right now.

Chris

[Mystique Racing]

Your right Greg it will not get any better until someone comes up with a plan that everyone can agree on. Right now with SR closing its doors LRE already closed parts becoming hard to find not sure where FV will end up. I know guys will say Samba.com for parts my problem I have the guys that I take care the new and upcoming guys, what to order a part and have it sent, they do not what used parts or have to sandblast and paint check for cracks or straightness. Its time to try and make things right. I love FV racing and would love to see it go on forever but its time for some changes. I see the committee has tabled disc brakes and balljoint front end this is a start lets see what happens hopefully everyone will jump on board and push to make this happen. To all committe thank you for all your work for the best class of racers in SCCA.

As a side note, I have a lot of friends in their 20-30s that dump a lot of money into street cars. The antiquated design of FV is the main thing that keeps them away or looking at SM if they are interested in road racing. If it wasn't for my roommate in college having a FV and making friends in the class by going with him, I would be racing SM right now.

I think Ray, and Chris, pretty much hit the nail on the head with one BIG exception, you will never get "everyone" to agree on "anything". IMHO FV is dying a natural death. It is time to move forward. FST answers virtually all of the issues that have been argued about over the last 5 years on this, and other, forums.

Spec tire (available nationally)
Higher weight limit
Disc brakes
New parts availability
Sexy looks

The founders of FST recognized these issues with FV over ten years ago and, as Greg would say, "did something about it"

I feel like some of the FV people cant see the forest through the trees.

Scott

[FVartist42]

Scott,

Your suggestion, how does it save the class?

Bruce

[problemchild]

Probably the same way that FV was saved in Austrailia.
If you consider the class to be a group of people, cars, and vendors, then the class is saved.
If you consider the class to be a set of current rules, then the class could move on as a vintage or sub-class, and would not be saved.
I have no opinion one way or the other, but saving, not saving, or evolving the class is just semantics.

Personally, FV is a concept. It should be the cheapest and most competive formula class in North America. Of course, it stopped being that long ago, but its revival is dependant on re-establishing that concept. I could care less what tires, beams, or engine size or whether its called FV, CFV, F1200, FV1600, or FST. Its all "Vee" to me and most people on the outside.

[Mystique Racing]

Bruce,

FV is going away on it's own for many reasons. It's had a wonderful life but it is near the end. Frankly SCCA, and sports car racing, may well be dying a slow death also.

What I do know is for the last 5 years people keep saying that FV needs a spec tire, or a higher weight limit, or new parts availability, or disc brakes, or ball joint front ends, or sexier looks, blah, blah, blah. They say "that" will be the answer, If we just do "that" then people will start coming back. Well frankly, FST has all of those things along with a class to race in and a stable rules package. At least FST is growing, not at a rapid pace but it is still growing. Not sure what other classes in this economy are growing.

So Bruce, My idea to save FV is to convert it to FST rules package, then call if FV, which is what it should be called. Everywhere else in the world FST is FV or FV1600, call it whatever you like.

There is already talk of considering disc brakes and ball joint front beams in FV. Heck, then your 80% of the way to FST anyway.

What the ultimate answer is only time will tell. What I'm trying to say is that converting to FST does addresses most of the "areas of concern" that people keep bringing up as to why FV is dying.

Scott

[Bill_Bonow]

In the Midwest? Here is a REALLY cheap way to find out what all the fuss is about.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthr ... post398398

It's a Citation XTC 41 FV conversion and the race is at the freshly repaved and widened Grattan Raceway in Belding, MI

[wroché29]

Scott's point is valid'

I always thought FST was a great idea. Never went that route because I preferred to do Nationals.
Would convert now and stick with regionals, but not many FST's in my area. Other cost-effective, non-scca, forms of racing have gotten my attention lately...

[Bill_Bonow]

....and stick with regionals,

Bill,

Nationals/Regionals are gone at the end of this season. SCCA Club Racing will consist of Majors and Divisionals. Both provide a path to the Runoffs.

[fvracer27]

Plan to merge FV and FST maybe?

1. Allow FV to run FST disc brakes with stock VW steel wheels current tire and run in current FV class at 1025 lbs Lets people who think we need disc brakes or for people that hate adjusting drum brakes have them.
2. Allow a FV with the 1200 to run in FST with FST wheels and choice of long or short box at 1025 lbs This make a easy first step into FST with only buying wheels and tires gives your car the "cool look" for those that think FV is stupid looking with the skinny wheels. I don't know how close these cars can be doing this but its worth a try.
3. If you convert to 1600 then you have to be FST weight
4. FST may become a National level class if it brings larger numbers



I think FV and FST need to work together to attrack more racers. Battling on the forums does nothing but disscurage newbies when they read this crap. As it is now FST takes from FV and FV stops the growth of FST this was pointed out to me 2 nights ago.

[SR Racing]

I think FV and FST need to work together to attrack more racers. Battling on the forums does nothing but disscurage newbies when they read this crap. As it is now FST takes from FV and FV stops the growth of FST this was pointed out to me 2 nights ago..

Mark, There really hasn't been much taking of FV to FST. The majority of current drivers are new to racing and/or left other classes years ago. ie. They are new blood, or have re-entered the venue.

As far as battling on the forums: There has been lots of push back from much of the current FV group towards FST. Those racing in FST have not tried to change the FV class in any way or "battled" to make changes. To the contrary I (and most in the group) have been opposed to most all changes to the FV class and have written letters to that effect. We are a regional SCCA class and like it that way. The only thing we have offered is information on what we have found works in FST.

At this point in time, I do not foresee any consensus on any changes for FV. FST will continue on. If FV does so that is fine, but I doubt there will be a migration path to FST via SCCA rules.

[wroché29]

....and stick with regionals,

Bill,

Nationals/Regionals are gone at the end of this season. SCCA Club Racing will consist of Majors and Divisionals. Both provide a path to the Runoffs.

Thanks Bill. The runoffs are not important to me any longer. Quality (car count ) track time at a "reasonable" cost is all I'm looking for.

[problemchild]

Whether FST is part of FV or another class, the collective pooling of Vees helps with race grouping, which was the initial thread topic. Unfortunately, to maintain good Vee race groupings, we need 4X as many cars in most of the country and 2X as many in our more healthy areas. Both classes need each other more than ever, and growing car counts in both can only help. FV drivers converting to FST, if they race more often, is still helping. FV drivers recruiting newbies to FST is helping. Even, FV drivers recruiting to FF, CFF, F500, and F600, is helping as it encourages separating formula classes into two groups. While 3 is better than 2, 2 is still better than one Formula Alphabet. Of course this is thinking outside the box, but if people refuse to take steps to reduce costs and turn the FV slide around, these indirect benefits are all we have.

As has been discussed here many times, partial conversions only solve small issues, usually at the same cost as a complete conversion to FST. The complete package accomplishes virtually everything required and is far more than the sum of the different parts.

[fvracer27]

I understand both Greg and Jim

My thought was by doing something like I said helps make the transition if one chooses to. Right now I would make a conversion to FST, I like the car and the concept BUT I have no one to run with as hundreds of other FV drivers so it keeps me from making a move. If I could just buy tires and wheels while keeping my engine I could go run a event with FST cars.... maybe encourage someone else to do the same. I was just trying to think of a way to transition classes while still being able to run the other.

Jim about the battling between the 2 it happens all the time. Everytime someone brings up tires in FV there is always a remark about FST tires lasting X amount of session, or anything about brakes.... brake pads cost $12, no adjusting and so on. Look back at the threads. I'm not saying you guys are wrong but that type of stuff confuses new people and I'm sure in come cases maybe swaying there choice to race.

Mark, There really hasn't been much taking of FV to FST. The majority of current drivers are new to racing and/or left other classes years ago. ie. They are new blood, or have re-entered the venue.

See I look at this like they are taking from ea other because a driver choosing one or the other could be pontential a driver in the other class and some like me wont switch because my region is still pretty strong takes away a pontial FST driver.

You guys know a lot more than me about how partial conversions and stuff like that may work. I was just trying to think of a way to make more choices for people.

[brian]

While the concept of national and regional racing is going away in 2014, only national classes will be able to compete in the Majors events and Runoffs.