Just don't get it!

[smsazzy]

In case you have not read my prior posts, I'll reiterate the basic theme here:

SCCA does not need to be left alone, and there are certainly issues to be addressed. Things like Spec Tires for example, which the membership indicated they desired. If someone submits a letter, that reopens the discussion on this issue.

That is the ONLY process for making a rules change. If YOU - Greg Rice - are serious about wanting change; then write a letter. Simple as that.

Alternatively, you can sit back at your keyboard, and spend that time making crazy conspiracy theory accusations about your fellow racers, who actually support some of the very ideas you propose.

Here is the site to submit a letter:
http://www.crbscca.com/index.php

[Ed Womer]

Yes we can bitch about tires till the cows come in but that is only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of racing. If you do like Steve does and if you look around at most of the top national drivers me included we all manage our tires so as to get the most out of them. They are unfortunately the most visable consumable we use. What about entry fees? What about travel and motel expenses? You have these three things that run up the cost of racing and even if you went to a spec tire or street radial like the Canadians use there will be people who abuse the system because they think it will help them when in fact it won't. Like someone posted earlier their are a lot of things to learn to run a vee at the front and today most people won't spend the time to learn these things, they want instant gratification for everything they do.
Of course after you learn how to get the car to work you also need to learn to drive the car and it isn't as easy as some think. With the lack of power comes planning and thinking ahead which I know that after over 30 years of racing a vee a lot of drivers don't do because I have had to have way to many conversations with other drivers over the years about learning to follow instead of the mentality of I have to be in front of you at all cost because the team principal for that F1 team is watching at the next turn, give me a break.
So unless you can lower all of the costs and you can't, I think you will see a continued decline in the class because most of us are getting older and just have had enough of it like me. When I started I had trouble with the costs but being older the money isn't as big a problem as it used to be but it sure is nice not spending 2K+ a weekend chasing after a $20 trophy.
Ed

[FVartist42]

The title says it all. To think a class that has lasted for 50 years is reliant on a single issue now.

[tiagosantos]

Ed - whaddaya mean "only" 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost? Damn, that's 25-33%. I regularly scour the depths of the internet to find 10% discount coupons!

On a (slightly) more serious note.. Out of car prep costs, travel and entry fees, the three major costs of racing, there's really only one we can help reduce. Travel is expensive and will only get more so (oil prices up again, wohoo! Did gas ever get cheaper since last time oil was over $100?..). Entry fees have been debated before and Brian has made it fairly clear that there's little that can be done about that..

Like Brian said, racing is only a minor attraction to kids right now. You sort of have to be a special kind of idiot to get into it, really. There is no hobby out there that I can think of that will eat up so much of your time and money. At my age, my income is quite a bit above the average, but racing still means I can't afford to buy my own place. I can't afford a house with enough room for all the supporting crap, garage and shop space, parking for the trailer and truck, etc - so I *have* to rent.

The title says it all. To think a class that has lasted for 50 years is reliant on a single issue now.

I haven't read anything about this being the single issue with the class. There are many things wrong with the class, SCCA, racing in general, F1, the US of A, Russia, Africa, the asteroid belt.. The existance of a multitude of problems doesn't mean we can't address each of them separately. On the same note, just because the class lasted 50 years, doesn't mean it'll last another 50 - or that it won't. We don't know that. I'm not trying to be the class hero, nor am I pretending that changing to different tires will attract new drivers and make FV the next big thing. It just makes sense to me that, if by all of us using the same cheaper, longer lasting tires, we can save ALL of us a bunch of money, that'd be a good thing.

I agree with Ed 100% on the points he made, just not sure if we've gotten to a different conclusion:
- "there will be people who abuse the system because they think it will help them when in fact it won't" - that's the point;

- "Of course after you learn how to get the car to work you also need to learn to drive the car and it isn't as easy as some think" - exactly! changing to cheaper tires won't suddenly make the usual front runners at the Runoffs fall to the back, nor will the guys who finished 27th, suddenly end on the podium. The best drivers and those more meticulous in car preparation will still be winning;

- "So unless you can lower all of the costs and you can't, I think you will see a continued decline in the class because most of us are getting older and just have had enough of it like me" - I am sure of it. And maybe that's why I post here and try to come up with ideas, good or bad. I know the train is going to crash, but I'll be on the brakes trying to slow it down until the last possible minute. The guys that are about to retire probably don't care much for slowing the train down, they want to go out with a bang. Sorry!

My conclusion after those FACTS is that running street radials like F1200 and all the other FV variations across the globe would change NOTHING other than how much money we ALL spend. That being the case, I'd rather save the money, I have car loans to pay and need to save money for a house. Others seem to conclude that they have money to spare, so why bother?

[problemchild]

Yes we can bitch about tires till the cows come in but that is only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of racing.

Tire costs in F1200 are $300 every 2-3 years. What is that? 1-5% depending on the seriousness of the competitor.
Low cost is what attracts the kids (and their parents) to F1200. Working class people can actually afford to do it!
It could not be more simple than that!

As Tiago says, Tires are our only tool we have to use to significantly cut costs.

If East Coast FV racers ever had any confidence in SCCA, it is gone. As a prominent concerned FV racer told me yesterday, "the decisions made by SCCA over the past few years have only had a negative impact on Northeast FV racing". With an imminent West Coast Runoffs announcement forthcoming, the Runoffs will cease to be an influence on the FV scene here. Contrary to common belief, many people have left the class in the last 5 yrs to race in other classes, not because they're too old. It is way beyond time for the FV community to take back the responsibility for the classs.

Stephen. Spend your time trying to fix problems. Calling me names is truly a waste of your time. I want only to make FV live. After bringing dozens of people into the class over 3+ decades, I would like to be able to recommend the class again. Telling people to write letters, without an organized lobby, is merely enabling the people that are protecting the "do nothing, everything is fine" perspective and shortening the FV lifespan in the SCCA National class format. Cheers!

[John Deonarine]

Did Goodyear make FV tires this year?

I went to the Goodyear dealer at Pocono and there was one tire from last year remaining.

Maybe the outcome of this discussion has been already determined?


Best Regards,

John

[SR Racing]

Goodyear stopped last year.

[CitationFV21]

John,

Goodyear lists FV tires in their catalog, but last year they had a production problem and it may have carried over to this year - someone can chime in with a official statement.

Here is the problem - If Hoosier is the last man standing by default, and Hoosier agrees to make a longer lasting tire - great - but unless it is formalized in the rules, there is no reason another tire manufacturer (Avon, Bridgestone *, even Goodyear) would not decide to do some Runoff specials in order to pick up some cheap publicity - and here we go again.

Now the SCCA is reluctant to give one manufacturer a class so as not to be accused of violating some kind restraint of trade, unless that manufacturer wants to become a "sponsor" of the class. On the other hand, if technical restrictions could be written, then any manufacturer who can meet the specifications can sell, even if only one one ends up doing it - a defacto spec tire.

* Bridgestone made a great FV tire - probably what we are looking for today - but when they bought Firestone and got into Indy Racing they dropped club races like a brick

ChrisZ

PS - Has anyone had a discussion with Hoosier to see if FV Radial tire would be better? Yes we would have to change the rules, but if there was an increase in performance and life, it might be a win win.

""D. Any tire size may be fitted, except that ungrooved radial race tires (radial slicks) are not allowed."" GCR 2013

[SR Racing]

Hoosier is a relatively small company, thus somewhat flexible. But does anyone really think they are willing to make a Radial for FV that will last a season? Thus, selling a couple hundred tires a year? (if that.) We are lucky they continue to sell the existing tires at quantities in the low thousands (if that.)
Consider that today the FV tires are $175-188. each. More than FF tires and MUCH more than the 3035/3045 Full size stock car tires.

When Avon, sponsored the F2000 series and their tire was spec'ed the prices went up by $20+ each.

You keep beating this dead horse. At best you need a manufacture, some major agreement (drivers and manufacturer) and a rule change. So MAYBE in 2 years you have a new spec tire. (Which will cost more.) How big will the FV fields be then ?

[CitationFV21]

Hoosier is a relatively small company, thus somewhat flexible. But does anyone really think they are willing to make a Radial for FV that will last a season? Thus, selling a couple hundred tires a year? (if that.) We are lucky they continue to sell the existing tires at quantities in the low thousands (if that.)
Consider that today the FV tires are $175-188. each. More than FF tires and MUCH more than the 3035/3045 Full size stock car tires.

When Avon, sponsored the F2000 series and their tire was spec'ed the prices went up by $20+ each.

You keep beating this dead horse. At best you need a manufacture, some major agreement (drivers and manufacturer) and a rule change. So MAYBE in 2 years you have a new spec tire. (Which will cost more.) How big will the FV fields be then ?

Darn - I had a great post and the computer ate it - so I will summarize:

There is no reason a FV tire should cost any more than another tire to make unless there is a technical reason. If so we need to know that. There is no reason a spec tire should cost more. In the above case either the extra money went to prizes or promotion, or the person negotiating cut a really bad deal.

Your right we can't do this without Hoosier, but we need to find out why costs are so high. If the answer is because they have to make new molds every year to be competitive, then we should have had a spec tire years ago. We hold 1/2 the equation - the rules - if they are standing in the way of making a cheaper, better tire for the class, then they should be changed.

No, this is not the only problem with FV, but it is one we can affect.

ChrisZ

[BLS]

There is no reason a FV tire should cost any more than another tire to make unless there is a technical reason

Quantity sold has a lot to do with price, as it does with most things. You can make a million widgets for a lot less per unit than a few hundred. Same with tires. I suspect the FF tires have a much greater sales volume as not just FF road racers use them. Up until this year there was competition, and the price was still high. Go to a harder compound = fewer sales = even higher cost. Still it might be lower total cost over a full season.

Look at the price of high performance street tires, not cheap either. Many years ago I had a good friend who was a tire engineer for that French company. He told me the material was about 1/4 to 1/3 the cost, IIRC.

Apparently Goodyear didn't see a profit worth the trouble at the currently high price...

[smsazzy]

[quote="problemchild Telling people to write letters, without an organized lobby, is merely enabling the people that are protecting the "do nothing, everything is fine" perspective and shortening the FV lifespan in the SCCA National class format.[/quote]

More conspiracy theories. Not sure who the secret Free Mason/SkullNBones/FV secret crowd is, but you are giving them far too much credit.

You are absolutely wrong about how a rule change gets proposed. Somebody has to send a letter. Whether you send 1 or 100 for the first request, it still goes out for member input. Those letters are actually the ones that matter in the results. Organizing all these people to overthrow the secret handshake FV secret power group is not needed. You still need to start the process by sending a letter. Continuing to whine on the internet without actually taking any proper action is a waste of time. Continuing to do so only shows that you are not willing to actually do anything other than complain.

[SR Racing]

There is no reason a FV tire should cost any more than another tire to make unless there is a technical reason.

REF: Econ101: Price is dictated by supply and demand. (What the market will bear.) It has little to do with any direct costs. If sales and margins aren't sufficient, they just pull out. The logic that seems to be needed here is: If Hoosier makes a tire at half the price, or that lasts twice as long, it will bring in twice the sales/margins) It won't. Go away.

but we need to find out why costs are so high.

Their costs (direct manufacturing costs) are not high. They ( Hoosier) were matching GY $ and slightly under (competitive) . They don't sell enough to make it an important line.

No, this is not the only problem with FV, but it is one we can affect.

Not likely, unless you can bring GY and or others back to the market (you would have to INCREASE sales to do that.) That will not happen. FV tire prices have been rising about 6-8% every year since I have been a dealer. Last year they only went up about 3% ( low inflation) and I suspect they were not sure GY was going to stop. I am sure next year they will increase by that 6-8% again. They will try to increase JUST enough so as not to entice other dealers into the market. (and with FV tires sales, I don't think that is much of a worry from any major tire company.) Hoosier is where they want to be on the crossing of the supply/demand and margins curves.

IF you were to force Hoosier (or others) into a spec tire (that could be cheaply made with long life) they would have to be guaranteed (or truly believe) sales (or margins) will increase. They won't, so they won't. You have what you have. Your ONLY possibility (IMO) is a change to a new tire or manufacturer of an existing line. Sorry, but FV does not swing enough weight in the market to dictate much of anything.

[Thomas Galuardi]

The front tires on the Delta Wing are 4.0 x 23.0 x 15.
They are Bridgestone and will fit on our rims.
I jokingly asked at Lime Rock to try a used set.
Of course they said "no".

[Thomas Galuardi]

One more point. Last year the Michelin guy at Road Atlanta would not even acknowledge me.
He said they were $15,000 each!!!! Then walked away!
Both Bridgestone reps at Lime Rock at least were polite and listened.

[brian]

Plus the tires are radials which are not legal in SCCA for Vees and many other non-DOT tire classes.

[problemchild]

Plus the tires are radials which are not legal in SCCA for Vees and many other non-DOT tire classes.

Oh, and there is another reason to do nothing. We cannot reduce tire costs by 50, 60, 70, 80, 90%, because that might involve making the control tire a radial or DOT tire, and that would require another rule change.

[smsazzy]

Oh, and there is another reason to do nothing. We cannot reduce tire costs by 50, 60, 70, 80, 90%, because that might involve making the control tire a radial or DOT tire, and that would require another rule change.

Greg,

That could certainly be changed with a rule change.

Here is the site to submit a letter:
http://www.crbscca.com/index.php

[tiagosantos]

Without trying to stir the pot too much, what is the reason behind the restriction? Are there certain characteristics that make radials advantageous (or not advantageous..)?

[problemchild]

This is why FV needs to be fixed.

Notice to all drivers racing in the John Stim Memorial Race July 12-13 at Lime Rock.
All group 1 cars will be moved to group 3 and group 1 will be eliminated. The new group 3 will run two additional laps. Group 2 will now be the first race group on track . The cars in groups 7 and 8 will be swapped. SPU will remain in group 7.

New Group 3
FA,FB,FC,FE,FF,FM.CFC,CSR,DSR,CF,S2,ASR,FS,FV,FST, F5,NCF

New Group7
SSM,SM2,STU,SPU

New Group 8
SRF Legends

Not surprisingly, the FV racers are withdrawing their entries.
My interests as a FV enthusiast and SCCA member are in direct conflict. FV needs to fix itself. SCCA needs to fix itself. FV cannot wait for SCCA to fix it as SCCA has its own restructuring to worry about. FV racers need to select a control tire, eliminate any potential rule creep and cheater potential from the rule package, then present it as a unified iniative that SCCA can support and institute. If that cannot happen in the short-term, then FV needs to find other organizations that can facilitate FV racing. This is essentially what has happened in S2000 where many more S2 cars race in vintage racing than SCCA. The important thing is that change needs to happen NOW!

[smsazzy]

Not surprisingly, the FV racers are withdrawing their entries.
My interests as a FV enthusiast and SCCA member are in direct conflict. FV needs to fix itself. SCCA needs to fix itself. FV cannot wait for SCCA to fix it as SCCA has its own restructuring to worry about. FV racers need to select a control tire, eliminate any potential rule creep and cheater potential from the rule package, then present it as a unified iniative that SCCA can support and institute. If that cannot happen in the short-term, then FV needs to find other organizations that can facilitate FV racing. This is essentially what has happened in S2000 where many more S2 cars race in vintage racing than SCCA. The important thing is that change needs to happen NOW!

Greg,

It sounds like you have a plan to fix all this. That's wonderful news. You could certainly request this be changed by proposing a rule change.

Here is the site to submit a letter:
http://www.crbscca.com/index.php

From there, the letter will go to the FSR Committee, then to the CRB and out for member input. Make sure you get all the like-minded SCCA racers you can muster to write in supporting the change. If enough support is shown through the letters then the rule changes will be recommended to the board, who will very likely go along with the recommendations. It is extremely rare that something would get recommended to the board re: a specific class and not be adopted.

[MarkP-2]

Smsazzy:

I think we should adopt the "Canadian " model for tires. There, I've said it and know that it would require different rims but
once the initial change is made, the fixed tire costs would go down. In addition, it's my understanding that rain tires aren't required
because the tires used up north can be used in the rain as well. I have over 20 VW rims and acknowledge those would become worthless
except to "streetcar" owners, but I'm willing to take the short term loss especially if it grows the class over the long haul.

Thanks!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1/ 005
01' Citation

[smsazzy]

Again, submit a letter to the CRB asking for that change. Talking about it on the board does nothing. The only way we can make a change is by following the process. The SCCA is not reading this board looking for ideas.

[brian]

As I understand it, the radial race tire is more expensive than the current bias ply tire. SCCA has banned the radials since they're clearly better and making everyone buy a more expensive tire to stay competitive makes no sense. Don't try to compare prices between street stuff and our racing tires. The speed standards are quite high in racing tires and are similar to Z rated street tires. The Z rated tires for my SVT Focus cost well over $200 apiece.

It's been said dozens of times, if you get concensus among the cars in your region, you can have a tire like the American Racers, or convert to the Canadian program. It can be done without national envolvement and be covered in the supps for the region's events. SF region has been doing it for many years.

[CitationFV21]

Just to make sure the facts are the facts I spoke to Jeff Speers at Hoosier on Tuesday. I had e-mailed him first outlining some discussion points. He was very open, although I would not suggest everyone calls him See my comment at the end of this post.

These are the bullet points:

Suggested Retail: (Dealers can charge what they feel is appropriate - there is no price fixing. I did not ask if larger dealers got better pricing - Jeff just said the suggested price is there as they operate in a price structure that allows for distributors and dealers.)

FV
21.5 x 5.5 – 15 R55A – $175.00 each
22.5 x 5.5 – 15 R55A – $188.00 each

FF
20.5 x 7.0 – 13 R25B - $211.00 each
22.5 x 7.2 – 13 R25B - $254.00 each

I did not ask about other classes.

He felt the estimated heat cycle for R55A to be competitive is 8 - 12. After that they stay slow but consistent - after around 18 - 20 they fall off the earth....

R55A is an intermediate compound that is supposed to handle like the old 55 and wear like the R60.

They can and will make a harder tire (he was not familiar with the history of the VROC) but he said you give up something to get something. He mentioned that a harder tire would take a lap or two to get up to temp (grip). That is exactly what the VROCs did.

Within reason, tire prices are labor and material. There is nothing specific about FV tires that make them more expensive, but advances in construction have increased the price. This backs up my contention when I ran a set of American Racers a few years back. The tire felt like an old FV tires from the 80's. He said they could make the tire cheaper by rolling back the design - we might give up a little bit of speed and feel might change (I have not run on a set of current tires, but if someone has switched between current tires and current American Racers, I would like to hear their opinion.). Tread life may or may not be changed unless you go to a different compound.

Doubling the amount of tires they sell would not significantly change the pricing. Halving the amount of tires would not change price much but would change availability based on production runs.

I did not ask him specifically about a spec tire as I do not feel I am in a position to negotiate or pretend I was negotiating for the FV racers or the SCCA - I tried to stick to technical questions.

He did say in the past Hoosier had worked with groups and lowered their profit margins on tires for trade offs like guaranteed quantity purchases.

He also said that in some classes they have an agreement not to make "Runoff Specials". He feels that is not fair to the companies and to the racers and would like to have that agreement for all classes.

It was short conversation but I thought very interesting and productive. My suggestion would be to invite Hoosier (and other tire manufacturers if preferred) to a meeting at the Runoffs, to discuss at the very least, holding or reducing the price of these tires. I got the impression he does not like to see any of their supported classes go away.

ChrisZ