Just don't get it!

[rayce13]

I have been in FV for the last two years. Have a pretty well sorted car and strong national engines, custom exhaust, etc. This year I am sitting out because I cannot justify $700 or more in tires for a weekend racing against people who put stickers on every race and are dedicated to the never ending pursuit of outspending the competition and at times blatantly cheating with illegal manifolds that no one seems to care to check.
I fully support going to a spec tire and am envious of the Canadian guys who can race a season or two on $500 worth of tires. My son races rotax series karts and they get spec tires and it completely takes out the "I'll outspend you for a win" card. They actually fully tech the karts, check fuel and engine seals, Its all driver.
The survey tells the tale. If FV or SCCA won't act when a clear majority ask for this change, that dis-heartens new folks like me who are not the "good old boys" but are the future of FV and are eager to be in an active class that offers great racing at an affordable price. In my opinion the lack of strong and decisive leadership will kill this class.
Go ahead and dismiss me as a newby who doesn't know (*$%&*%, that attitude is why new people are not interested in getting in the middle of what seems like a never ending, indecisive pissing match that is FV. If no decisive action is taken soon, my FV will be on the market while there still may be a remnant of a market left.

[brian]

I'm quite sorry your experience has been so negative. If I was aware that folks are running questionable parts, I would protest them at the first opportunity I had. If you are upheld, it doesn't cost a penny. It really isn't appropriate for tech to go great lengths to find cheaters, it's my belief that it's our job to self police. I stated originally, that there were significant questions about the survey that was conducted and that's what stopped the progress. I'd like to see a letter writing program to the CRB raise the issue again. As of today, there are two suppliers of vee tires: American Racer and Hoosier. Frankly I don't think the two compete with each other on any level and it would be hard to choose only one. But that doesn't mean that Hooiser would not produce a harder tire if we asked. It will take some effort and a consistent verifyable voice to the CRB to make it happen. Remember when the weight issue was put out for comment, it was rejected by a significant margin.

[smsazzy]

Nobody ever came to us (the committee) and asked for clarification on our survey results.

A much larger chunk of national competitors (54) than you will ever get to write letters responded to the survey. To put that in perspective, 53% of ALL drivers to enter a national in 2011 responded to the survey. The only reason we did not break out regional only guys is the lack of a central regional points database to access. However 188 of the respondents that replied described themselves as "actively racing today", entering a minimum of 1 race in the prior 12 months. When is the last time an issue in the history of SCCA received a reply from 188 drivers from the same class?

To take that a step further, if the results were in question, and the reaction is to just dismiss it offhand without so much as looking into it, then that is pretty sad. A CLEAR majority of active national drivers voted YES, and it was ignored completely without even requesting member input.

Responses only from those in 2011 SCCA National Points:
(http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... -final.pdf)

Would you support a spec tire?
38 national drivers: Yes (70%)
16 national drivers: No (30%)

What would be your preferred tire option if a spec tire were adopted?
43: Run a specifically designed slick (80%)
5: Change to a wider tire (9%)
3: Change to a DOT tire (6%)
2: Treaded Tire (4%)
1: Blank (2%)

If a spec tire was adopted, would you continue to race? (Those who voted NO)
9: I would continue to race, regardless (56%)
6: I would race less or quit FV (38%)
1: Blank (6%)

[FV80]

... I cannot justify $700 or more in tires for a weekend racing against people who put stickers on every race and are dedicated to the never ending pursuit of outspending the competition...

Russ,
I doubt this will change your mind, but IMHO, you are just WRONG. I won the first Majors race at NJMP about 3 weeks ago ... on the exact SAME tires that I finished 2nd on at Atlanta in May. I also ran the EXACT same tires at VIR and Summit Point. They were THREE races old when I STARTED the NJMP race. I just don't know what more we can expect from Hoosier. Yes.., I did run new tires on day 2 at NJMP, but I didn't win. It's not about SPENDING MONEY nearly as much as it is about MANAGING YOUR RESOURCES..... at least as far as I see it. Sitting on the pole in qualifying is worth ZILCH in SCCA. Winning a race is .. well, it's almost worth ZILCH too, but more fun! .'

The whole thing is about COMPETITION. I want to beat everyone else WITHOUT outspending them.. *that's* my goal. I don't have $$MONEY$$ to waste.

I remember when I started racing FV back in 1977. I thought EVERYONE ELSE was CHEATING (like Greg thinks). It took me about EIGHT years to realize (why didn't I quit during that time? .. guess I was stupid), but I FINALLY started to gain some ground (on the BACK of the lead pack). FV is an EXTREMELY competitive class. You cannot (should not) expect to show up one day and immediately be at the front. There is a LOT of "learning" that has to be done -- both in car prep and race craft .. what needs to be addressed/fixed on the car and WHERE to spend your $$$. If it was EASY, EVERYONE would be doing it . There is, however, an (expensive) alternative.. that is to HIRE someone (and possibly a CAR) that really has enough experience to put you at the front (if you have the talent). If you HAVE $$MONEY$$, that is the fast track to the front.. but it won't guarantee you a win at ANY track!.

Steve, FV80

[CitationFV21]

Steve,

I am going to disagree a little.

I hope the tires today are better than they were in the past. I have lived through tire wars - soft compounds and narrow tires where you did throw away a set of tires a weekend. You literally burned them up.

With a spec tire or a single manufacturer, there is little incentive to make a faster tire, they can then focus on selling a better all-around tire.

The Hoosier 55s are probably not too bad, but the main thing is heat cycles. Nationals used to be 3 heat cycles - practice, qualifying and a race. You could run a old set of tires in practice.

Now many regionals are qualifying, race 1, qualifying (or warm up), race 2. So you put 4 heat cycles on per weekend. I think if you surveyed most national drivers, they believe that after 4 heat cycles you cannot turn competitive times.

Now the old VROC Hoosiers were good for over 20 heat cycles - that would be 5 double regional weekends - more than enough to justify $700.00 a set.

So the need is between 4 heat cycles and 20 - can Hoosier make a tire that could get say 12 heat cycles before a performance fall off? I think they have and can. (and I include drivabilty - just because a pro driver maybe go as fast on an old set of tires, does not mean that those tires are suitable for a novice or intermediate racer.)

My final question to every driver - if you had to throw away your pistons, or brake drums, or master cylinders every 2 or 3 races races - wouldn't everyone be up in arms? What makes a tire different than any other part of the car? In a restricted class like FV, why have an basically unrestricted component?

Disclaimer - I grew up in the Skip Barber Series where we ran M&H slicks that we ran to the cord without noticeable performance issues (8 heat cycles per day) and then street radials that we ran basically until the tread disappeared (then the tire might have an advantage in the dry) without a problem.

ChrisZ

[tiagosantos]

Steve, with all due respect, you won a race on the 3rd cycle of a set of tires and then swapped to new tires.. So with some good management, you're still buying a new set of tires every 1.5 weekends, at 4 or 5 sessions a weekend. When we hear guys like Jean S. say they're running tires with 65 sessions on them, that cost much less than a set of Hoosiers, well.. I'm not terribly impressed, to be honest

No, you don't burn through a set of tires every weekend, technically - you slowly erode away 3 different sets over 3 different weekends.. Of course if you're mostly winning or finishing 2nd at Nationals, it isn't a big deal. Every two wins gets you a new set of tires anyway

Other than that, I completely agree with what you said. Winning in FV is much harder than it looks. I've ran with the PNW national folks, which I trust to be running 100% legal cars, and it's a whole new ball game compared to what I'm accustomed to. They're great drivers, but also very meticulous with making sure the cars are the best they can be. I was 4 seconds off the pace in Seattle and I think I can only blame the car/tires/motor for about 2 of those seconds, tops.

Anyway, personally this is the puzzling bit. Despite numerous series all over the world, including not only FV but FF as well, running tires that last just about "forever", we as a class are unwilling to swap to a much cheaper, longer lasting and equalizing choice in tires. A lot of us see street/radial tires as sissy amateur tires.. Not fit for the professional operation we're running or maybe we're all afraid our cars will finally be exposed as the glorified dune buggies that they are

[FV80]

... you won a race on the 3rd cycle of a set of tires and then swapped to new tires....

In point of fact, that was the 5th cycle on those tires .. and I'm still using them - I plan to RACE on them at Watkins Glen. 1st session was a scrub session - short, yes, but still a heat cycle. Then a race at each of Atlanta, VIR and Summit Point .. then a race at NJMP. Next will be a race at Watkins Glen.. I hope. My second set, will run the other race at WGI.

Agreed, that's not 2 YEARS worth of racing, but it's certainly not a new set every race - far from it. Personally, I am quite satisfied with that level of tire longevity for the performance. I'm still kicking myself for missing the chance to try out a set of the Canadian Falkens at Roebling 50th, but that's history - not much I can do about it now.

I'm also PRETTY SURE that, were we to invoke say, the canadian spec tire, many would be shaving those right off the bat. Actually the tire mfr's can shave them for us. Tires that give THEM 2 seasons of racing, would end up giving "front runners" - maybe half a season (3 - 4 races, maybe 5) at best. Hmmm... I'm getting that NOW .

Steve, FV80

[hardingfv32-1]

The validity of heat cycles is questionable with current F1 tire engineers. The correct way to summarize the tires post curing level is with a 'heat history'.... the product of the time spent at a given temperature.

Brian

[tiagosantos]

Steve, like you say, I have no doubt lots of people would end up shaving them and throwing them away after a few short sessions. I just don't think the penalty for those who choose not to do so, would be as bad as it is now. At least there would be an option of running the same tires all year, giving up a relatively small amount of performance. Even if the difference between a full rubber set and a shaved set is 1 second a lap.. Currently, how far off would you be on a set of tires with 30 cycles on it? (Or 30 x 20mins of heat history.. ) also, those who do decide to shave their tires would still be spending less money. Only problem is they'd never break a lap record again - and to some, that may be a very big problem.

They don't seem to have a problem with people shaving tire in F1200. It's easy to dismiss it thinking that the F1200 guys are all just friends having fun (they are!) and aren't taking any of it as seriously as the SCCA fellas. I'm sure there are other examples, but the F1200 series seems to have produced drivers like Steve Bamford.. He seems to be doing OK playing with the big boys, on a couple of different classes at the same time The F1200 races are pretty serious business, there are some fantastic drivers and some great racing out there. I'd say the tires are a big contribution to that, rather than a detriment.

[Dave]

Why do people compare Canadian F1200 to US FV racing? Sorry, not to belittle them BUT their group is like a small SCCA region only 15 cars or so. Racing IS expensive, Racing has always been expensive, and Will ALWAYS BE EXPENSIVE. Learn to adjust your brakes, and cycle and conserve your tires. Go racing or play tiddly winks (but not competitively because that is expensive too!)

[problemchild]

Why do people compare Canadian F1200 to US FV racing? Sorry, not to belittle them BUT their group is like a small SCCA region only 15 cars or so. Racing IS expensive, Racing has always been expensive, and Will ALWAYS BE EXPENSIVE. Learn to adjust your brakes, and cycle and conserve your tires. Go racing or play tiddly winks (but not competitively because that is expensive too!)

Or .... you could enforce rules to prevent cheating and rule creep, mandate a good control tire ...... thereby reducing cost and increasing competition ..... thereby slowing the class size reduction, and improving the FV customer experience and value.

It is only common sense and good business to study the more successful parts of your business, and incorporate the elements making those parts successful into the rest of your business. F1200 and the other few areas with good fields are logical places to start when looking for ways to improve the bigger nationwide FV picture. Formula alphabet, including V, is here to stay unless the FV survivors do something to stabilize and grow. Maintaining FV decline to 10% per year is just not going to cut it. As I mentioned in post #1, unless the fear mongerers/ego-maniacs start caring about the class future, the best course of action is to start managing the transition from SCCA to vintage organizations who can provide more appropriate groupings for FV racing.

[tiagosantos]

Why do people compare Canadian F1200 to US FV racing? Sorry, not to belittle them BUT their group is like a small SCCA region only 15 cars or so.

Not even sure where to begin. Canadian F1200 is like a small SCCA region? lol.. Yes, a small SCCA region like pretty much no other, with intensely close racing, big groups and their own run group. If all SCCA regions were as "small" as they are, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Why do we compare the two? Because, despite some significant cultural differences, Canada and most of the US are fairly similar, at least economically if nothing else. We could compare to "FV" in other parts of the world, but I think it's pretty important to compare and measure up against the successes of series that are this close. There is merit in going out and learning from your mistakes, but being able to learn from others' experiences is a sign of intelligence.

No one is saying that racing will be cheap if we make any changes. You're right, it'll always be expensive. But is that some sort of argument for not making it CHEAPER? Are you racing so you can brag to your friends about how much money you spend on a weekend at the track?

This is where I feel the cultural differences play up. Some of us want to reduce costs so more of us can race competitively. To us, it's a lot more fun, challenging and rewarding to win in a big, tight group. Others want to be part of some exclusive club. I thought that was a golf thing?

[smsazzy]

Okay everyone, now is your chance. Get off this website, go to http://www.scca.com. Write a letter telling the club what you want. There is no better time than right now!

Stop going round and round in circles and write a letter asking for change.

[problemchild]

Random letters just get buried by opposition from a few people, or elite FV drivers (with tire deals), whom SCCA politicians rely on for FV input.

To get things rolling, the FV community needs an organized lobby of FV racers, who send 50-60 letters demanding the same change. Most of all, it needs the minority, who like it the way it is, to accept that change is required for the class to survive. FV needs to grow! Managing the decline to 10% per year is just not getting the job done. To do that, FV needs to clearly be the least expensive and most competitive formula car option.

[smsazzy]

Actually, you are incorrect in your assumption. All it takes is 1 letter. Then it will typically get kicked to the FSRC, who typically asked the FV Adhoc Comm for our opinion. Then it goes out for member input. That is when you need a well organized campaign. 50 letters at the same time requesting the change will still follow the same process.

If nobody is willing to write a letter, then follow that up with more letters for/against when member input is requested, then yes - nothing will get done.

Guess what - it won't be the "FV elites", "good ol boys", the "guys with tire deals" or the rich guys that want to outspend you, or whatever other excuses you want to throw at the wall as to who is holding you back - it will be you. Because you couldn't send a letter to SCCA.

[brian]

"To do that, FV needs to clearly be the least expensive and most competitive formula car option." Huh? Since when was any other formula car less expensive than a vee? Craig, you've run other formula cars, were they any cheaper than Shirley? Doubt it.

I hate it when someone complains about cheating and won't protest. Nothing's worse than listening to a bunch of garrulous wankers. SCCA has a system, use it.

[problemchild]

"To do that, FV needs to clearly be the least expensive and most competitive formula car option." Huh? Since when was any other formula car less expensive than a vee? Craig, you've run other formula cars, were they any cheaper than Shirley? Doubt it.

I hate it when someone complains about cheating and won't protest. Nothing's worse than listening to a bunch of garrulous wankers. SCCA has a system, use it.

BrYan, You are limited by your years of SCCA exposure which prevents you from looking at the class as an outsider or someone who wants to fix problems. While you just accept the ongoing death of the class, you consider people trying to actually fix the class as garrulous. That our FV representative in SCCA considers discussion about the class health to be trivial and annoying is sad, and why we are at this point now.

FV is debatably the cheapest, maybe, kind-of. For similiar money, you can run CF on spec tires, or a whole bunch of FF, F5, F6, FM, FC, CFC cars which will have similiar costs, while running in the same race group, and not being mobile chicanes for 90% of the cars on track in that session. In many cases, you can run those cars more competitively for less money. Today, for many of the newbies who can afford to race, but cannot prep them, race prep and crash damage repairs may be cheaper in other classes. Yes, that is true. Although parts may be more, the labor to replace 2 corners on a FF is minimal. The labor to properly repair 2 FV corners (with custom ride ht adjusters, custom springs, massaged trailing arms, offset bushings, custom spindles, spindle strengthening hardware, etc) takes days and weeks! To attract people to FV rather than to the other Formula Alphabet classes, it must cost less. Much less!

Make it cheaper, you attract people. Attract people, car counts increase, and race grouping options improve. Race groupings improve, and more people are attracted. It is called growth and is the opposite of what is happening now. Yes this is possible. It is the only option that the FV community has, other than finding more appropriate race groups with other organizations. It will take leadership and a united lobby effort by the entire FV community. Those few dissenters just kill the momentum that an organized lobby can create. Seems like a lot more constructive gameplan than launching attacks at drivers in other classes, every time a FV driver gets in the way.

With decreased car counts and grouped as formula alphabet, the great competition selling tool has disappeared. "Lowest cost" is our ace selling tool.We just need to make it truly the lowest cost!

[SR Racing]

God this is getting old.... (not unlike the Vee)

Sorry, but lowering the cost to build, race or repair a Vee will not attract any new drivers. It MAY keep a few old drivers and MAY put them out on the track a bit more often if $ is the issue. Guys, MOST of us are 50+ years old.
No kid with the money (his or his dad's) is dreaming about racing a Vee. There are dozens of rice burners out there that can be bought for less and maintained as easily. Ask any kid about FV. He's never heard of it. And when they see them they chuckle. He has heard of all the import mini-muscle cars and probably has one. If he decides to race SCCA he will not be in a Vee. While FST has a great tire formula, is cheaper to run, is faster and arguably more attractive, but no kids are pounding down the doors for them. FST HAS attracted some older drivers and is growing every year, but no land slides. Cost is not the issue. It is exposure and what the kids think is cool.

Vee is slowly going away because the drivers that loved them are going away. (in one way or another).

There were lots of threads on here about promotion via shows, videos, displays, etc. Never happened. No new exposure, no new drivers.

[problemchild]

Lots of under-25s running in F1200. Cost is the attraction. They cannot afford any other class with open wheels.
Cost was what attracted me and my friends. It is what attracted many of the FV old-timers initially. They just don't remember it that way.
With the current cars/tires/attitudes .... promoting low-cost is just rhetoric that prospective newbies quickly dismiss as other factors take over.

[problemchild]

Getting old? Garrulous wankers? No suggestions on how to deal with the mixed class problems ..... just excuses for not trying.

Is the only solution to the mixed class problems to have Mr Davis chase down disrespectful drivers from other classes to educate them on the challenges of racing FV with faster class cars. There must be a better plan

[smsazzy]

I made a suggestion. Write a letter. Write several. One for each issue you want addressed. If you are not going to write a letter, nothing will get done. YOU have that power. Not exercising it means you are part of the problem.

In case you have not guessed: Posting on the message boards and forums does nothing to make a change.

Stop responding to this forum and actually make a proposal to the CRB. If you won't do that, you are part of the problem.

[problemchild]

You are so wrong. Playing into the SCCA system just ensures nothing ever gets accomplished.

When a group of people agree on a philosophy, develop a good plan, organize a group of people to support it, and present it in a developed proposal, then there is a chance that something may get done. That is how the real world works!

I'll support and work hard to support anybody who comes up with good ideas and a plan to present and support those ideas. I volunteered to finance and operate a control tire test program. Too much trouble, it will never work, blah, blah, blah. I have submitted many different proposals over the years, which were all lobbied against, all of which would look really good if in place now.

Somebody needs to do something beyond harassing FM drivers to respect FV drivers.

[brian]

Gosh Craig, maybe you need a Snickers. I too have written many letters that have been ignored or declined, but I haven't given up. SCCA has a very effective letter tracking system that was designed in-house and it has really improved the process. Stephen is right, there is a system in place and there's no excuse for not using it. Additionally, Topeka now has the capability to do email surveys through the membership system and could use this system to measure the class's response to ideas.

If there is a consensus regarding unchecked cheating, SCCA can implement a compliance program similar to SRF or the one used by SM. If you look at most race registrations, you'll see, for an added fee during registration, the tools and staffing could be established to do as much as we want. Just be ready to spend more time in impound and have some show and tell. It's not fair to ask the rest of the membership to fund our needs but it could be done if the class wanted it.

Jim is quite correct in his observations. Not only are young men not buying and driving cars as much, girls buy more of them and earlier in life than boys. Boys prefer to take mass transit so they can continue to play their games. Seriously! I've seen the studies. Most recent arrivals to auto racing prefer fendered cars because open wheel is too dangerous. They like to do arrive and drive cars and not have to work on them. Most do less than two weekends a year. It's just another one of many distractions they enjoy. We now compete with other sports, music concerts and other pastimes for their spare time which they have less of than we did at their age.

SCCA is doing a lot of investigation and studying the future and folks, we're not in Kansas anymore. The future is going to be very different. Enjoy what we have while it's still here and do your part for it's survival.

[smsazzy]

You are so wrong. Playing into the SCCA system just ensures nothing ever gets accomplished.

When a group of people agree on a philosophy, develop a good plan, organize a group of people to support it, and present it in a developed proposal, then there is a chance that something may get done. That is how the real world works!

I'll support and work hard to support anybody who comes up with good ideas and a plan to present and support those ideas. I volunteered to finance and operate a control tire test program. Too much trouble, it will never work, blah, blah, blah. I have submitted many different proposals over the years, which were all lobbied against, all of which would look really good if in place now.

Somebody needs to do something beyond harassing FM drivers to respect FV drivers.

There you go again. Blaming anything you can, yet refusing any actual action on your part.

It is time to stop taking your posts as anything other than flaming, blaming and complaining.

[problemchild]

OMG, Two people who think the system is working fine and we need to leave it to SCCA to solve all our problems. They must have some good stuff on the west coast