Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

[CitationFV21]

[quote="smsazzy"][quote="CitationFV21"]Edit - I wrote this before Steve - but forgot to hit submit..... [/quote]

Sounds like he blocked you to get his posted first. Did he make one move or two? [/quote]

No - Just one move - I was sleeping and did not react fast enough

[CitationFV21]

Unless you've raced without mirrors, you may not understand what the pro-anti-mirror guys are talking about.

When you drive an open wheel race car, you drive a different style than if you raced a closed wheel car for fear of launching one or both cars. When you race without mirrors you also change racing style. Motorcycles road race without mirrors, are dramatically faster than what our cars do, and do so in mixed classes. It was an odd idea when I started racing bikes, but once out there without mirrors you see that it works just fine.

When no one has mirrors, you can no longer dive bomb a slower driver because you know he has no way to know you're there. As you approach the slower racer you can't commit to anything before you know what their racing line will be, and you adapt. I have no belief that SCCA would ever change or even give it a trial, but I think it can make mixed class racing safer. John

Having watched 250's run with 600's in the turns, I wonder what the cornering speed difference is. Less than we run.

With Atlantics and Vees running together (watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSnN2tgFo - go to 1:40 and this is an FE! or watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDeuCcY480c

Without mirrors I could never go for an apex.....

ChrisZ

PS - At Lime Rock I proposed drawing a line down the middle of the track - Fords on the Inside and Vees on the outside

[fvracer27]

Unless you've raced without mirrors, you may not understand what the pro-anti-mirror guys are talking about.

When you drive an open wheel race car, you drive a different style than if you raced a closed wheel car for fear of launching one or both cars. When you race without mirrors you also change racing style. Motorcycles road race without mirrors, are dramatically faster than what our cars do, and do so in mixed classes. It was an odd idea when I started racing bikes, but once out there without mirrors you see that it works just fine.

When no one has mirrors, you can no longer dive bomb a slower driver because you know he has no way to know you're there. As you approach the slower racer you can't commit to anything before you know what their racing line will be, and you adapt. I have no belief that SCCA would ever change or even give it a trial, but I think it can make mixed class racing safer. John

exactly

Steve I get it we race with some people that should be fishing and not racing which is why getting a comp licence should be a little more involved and student should always run without mirrors so they keep there focus on what they should (not a FA coming up on them at 3 times the speed, the FA already knows how to go around a stop sign)

I don't think mixed classes is a problem I think it would help (again eveyone keeps there mind on what they are supposed to.

And Chirs I understand about the dive bombing in corners but the reason why they dive bomb is because they assume your a mirror driver and should know they are there so rather than waiting until a proper pass is availible they try to do it anytime a crack opens.

I raced shifter karts (mostly open wheel and trust me they fly just like any open wheel car) but the racing was crazy close and everyone adapts to run close giving racing room.

Durning the winter I run indoor karts and yes they only go 40MPH but there is not mirrors and it's much easier to pass slow traffic when they just drive there line and do not know when you will pass.

But yes I get we have a lot of bozos out there that can wreck people because they have never been taught consistant racing line and love wonder all over the place.

[fvracer27]

Without mirrors I could never go for an apex.....

ChrisZ

You could always go for the apex but the overtaking car could not always dive bomb you they would actually have to make a legit pass not a get the F out of my way I'm better than you pass

[tiagosantos]

There is one tiny difference between karts and bikes, and a formula car. Our field of vision is about 180 degrees. That means on a kart or bike, you can turn your head 90 degrees, and have a pretty good idea of what's going on behind you. On a Vee, our vision is blocked by.. You know.. Half of the car.

It's a completely different style of racing. Still, are you trying to say there is no blocking (or dive bombs!) in karts because they don't have mirrors? Hmmm..

[fvracer27]

There is one tiny difference between karts and bikes, and a formula car. Our field of vision is about 180 degrees. That means on a kart or bike, you can turn your head 90 degrees, and have a pretty good idea of what's going on behind you. On a Vee, our vision is blocked by.. You know.. Half of the car.

It's a completely different style of racing. Still, are you trying to say there is no blocking (or dive bombs!) in karts because they don't have mirrors? Hmmm..

What type of kart or bike did you race? I could not turn my head 90 degrees in my kart, I don't even think I can standing still and never needed to, also a lay down or endurance kart is even worse. On a bike not many riders turn there head to look behind them going into a corner under braking. Yes on TV you see the pros look back going down the staight to see how much of a lead but they do not look to block. In karts and bikes you may take a defensive line if you hear someone but you do not block. There is a difference from a karter or a bike dive bomb as they complete the pass not just jaming a nose in there saying "out of my way". My last FV was a D13 and which most people know has just about the least field of vision and with a little ajustment to my seat position I had plenty of side view, I could see a car if it was on the side of me and that is all you need to see.

The only think mirrors are good for is backing in the garage or blocking. They don't make you faster and most of the time safety is questionable as people spend to much time driving in ther mirror then end up somewhere on the track they should'nt be or getting on the brake to late because they were looking at Jacks shinny helmet.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_far_can_h ... ads_around

[tiagosantos]

Good job on being pedantic with my numbers. Are your eyeballs frozen to your face? Sitting in your current position, can you not turn your head and your eyes so that you're looking completely perpendicular to your computer monitor? That's scarier than you not using your mirrors.

Sheesh.

I'm not a pro karter, or a pro biker, I obviously know nothing about that marvelous world of racing safety where nothing ever happens because they don't have mirrors. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the severity and consequence of the different types of crashes, nothing to do with visibility, etc. The FIA is obviously ignorant of karting, else they would have figured out long ago that mirrors are the root of all evil! Why spend all that money of crash testing, side impact protection, head restraints, crush structures and all the other useless crap, when they could simply get rid of mirrors! I was going to say we can agree to disagree about mirrors, but I don't think even that is going to happen, I'll just bow out of this one.

I'll also have to agree to disagree on the difficulty of checking your mirrors while driving. Sorry Steve, but I think your are exaggerating for dramatic effect on saying checking your mirrors can cost you 1.5 seconds a lap. Being lapped by faster cars, yes. Checking your mirrors?..

Anyway, it seems my lack of racing and maybe a little too much time at work is making me cranky and intolerant. I'll take a break from the discussions before I say something (else) I'll end up regretting.

[smsazzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4amJbl-VNUY

No mirrors will fix everything.....

[fvracer27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4amJbl-VNUY

No mirrors will fix everything.....

Mirrors fix everything
http://youtu.be/Y-mWm5Emj1A

This is why a lot of very knowledgable people do not post on forums

I'll hibernate now on the forums and go racing while you smart people try how to adjust your brake shoes I have a 8 year old that I taught in 30 min so he does mine

[Bill_Bonow]

I just don't get it........

I watched both videos very carefully and I still don't know......

Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

[CitationFV21]

After watching today's F1 race, I can now see the evolution of the block and I can attribute it to 4 people:

Jackie Stewart - not intentionally of course - he would hate the block - but his push for safety made it possible,
Gilles Villeneuve - the first, I think, of the car control drivers who would take crazy chances to win,
Ayrton Senna - Now we start seeing the karting influence brought to F1 and the using the car as a barricade to other drivers (mostly Prost)
Michael Schumacher - The king of the starting line block, responsible for all the movement you see when the lights go out.

Now, in racing the block was always a racing tactic, but it was premeditated. You would change your line to make a competitor go around you, or you would use a slower car as a pick to slow you competitor up.

These days - mirrors or not, blocking has become reactionary. So to answer Bill's question, if it was a calculated move to force the other driver to hesitate or change his line, then it was a legal block. If it was a reaction to take away racing room (in the GCR) or prevent the driver from completing a pass in progress (also in the GCR), then it is an illegal block and should have been protested.

At this point there are only two drivers who know the truth - can anyone perform the Vulcan mind meld so we can get to the bottom of this?

ChrisZ

[smsazzy]

Well said Chris.

A defensive line to make it harder to get by you is not a block and totally fine.

Making multiple moves to make it impossible to get by is a block.

That's my opinion anyway.

[hardingfv32-1]

[quote="CitationFV21"....have been protested.

At this point there are only two drivers who know the truth - can anyone perform the Vulcan mind meld so we can get to the bottom of this?[/quote]

That is why a protest is pointless. A lot of these race win blocks take place in front of the starters stand and how often have you seen the official take any action.

These blockers know that most competitors are either scared of a accident or lack the budget to accommodate an accident. They can block with almost no chance of retribution.

Brian

[brian]

Brian, it's up to the competitors to police the driving. It doesn't take a budget, or a lack of being scared, to protest someone's driving. It does take courage to stand up for what you believe in and push back against the natural resistance to confrontation. If there was a protest every time I heard a complaint from a driver about someone else's driving, the courts would be packed and they're not. If SCCA began an aggressive campaign on driving or in the tech shed, there would be an outcry about witch hunts and favoritism. A driver's reputation is never made, or broken, with one incident and doing nothing won't change a bad trend or habit.

[smsazzy]

After seeing the video here: http://www.wedgeracing.com/video/Brad-R ... 202013.avi

I'd have to say that wasn't nearly as bad as described. That may be a little aggressive, but I have no problem with it. I have certainly seen much worse. It is hard to tell exactly who moved first frankly. Definitely not alongside either.