Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Jim Kearney
Posts: 3
Joined: June 22nd, 2010, 11:00 am

Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by Jim Kearney »

I was at the Birthday Party but I had to leave before the big race. I like Brad and I like Roger but Roger was hot at Brad in impound, I'm told. He feels that, at the run to the finish line, Brad moved from the left edge of the track over to the wall on the right and did not leave him a lane. Roger feels that but for that, he would have passed Brad. Brad feels that he made his one defensive move and was simply making Roger beat him.

For Brad to win this event after being away for 3 plus years in an incredible accomplishment. For Roger to be this close despite never being there before is equally impressive. It is not my intent to render judgment nor ignite a firestorm. As I said, I did not see it. But it seems to me that the FV family could benefit from having a civil discussion about this nettlesome issue. What limits, if any, does the rule book place upon the leader? What ethical standards, if any, does the FV community want the leader to uphold?

Jim Kearney
brian
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by brian »

In this day of self interest above all else, blocking, punting, pushing and "boys have at it" have all taken the place of good sportsmanship and clean racing. Any more, rules are to be stretched, not followed. Vettel thinks he's above his team's wishes, Senna & Schumacher simply thought the rules didn't apply to them. The infamous "bump and run" has become the way to win on short ovals and folks are willing to accept winning at all costs, including sacrificing the safety of others including spectators. I grew up learning that sportsmanship was the most important thing and to me, it still is. The real truth in every racing incident always lies somewhere beyond the perception of either participant and right and wrong will never be agreed upon. What's really important to me is what my competitors remember about the career and life I leave behind. You're born honest and no one but you can change that.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by smsazzy »

I did not see it either. I think making 1 single move is acceptable defense of your position. However, once you make that move, you have played your hand. Roger should have gone left once Brad went right.

That said, if Roger had a wheel next to him, I believe Brad is obligated to leave him a car width+ of room between him and the wall.

Was Roger alongside at all? If not, and Brad truly only made the one move from left to right, then all is fair in my book. However, if Roger had a wheel alongside, or if two moves were made, then two shots from the free throw line are due. :-)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by Speedsport »

Good question and one I had a discussion about with a fellow competitor a few days ago. I think more important then the "number of moves" is the severity of the moves or the result of the moves. Watch the video on speedcasttv.com from the 2012 runoffs where Roger and I were racing to the line. At the exit of 14, Roger went right, then as I was along side of him, he came back to the left. 2 moves, but I had no problem with that as he left me room. It was clean and fair. However, if he had not left me room on the second move, or if a 3rd car would have been there and I got boxed out, it would have been a little different.

My understanding of the birthday race was the second move of Brad's didn't leave Roger any room, forcing him to lift. Thats uncalled for in my book. So perhaps that's where I draw the line?? If a competitor is forced to lift on a straightaway due to someone elses left or right movements, then he has a right to be upset.
FV80
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by FV80 »

IMHO, the front car should not drive in his mirror. He is allowed to do anything he wants as long as it's consistent and NOT in response to what the driver behind does. The "one move" is debatable because it doesn't specify HOW FAR the move is, nor what might be beside either driver.

To answer the earlier question, Roger had the momentum and was closing fast out of the last turn, but was never able to get a wheel beside Brad until after the finish line. Here is a pic of the finish - thanks to Ron Levanduski
http://www.stargazette.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 060&Ref=PH
BTW - he said these pix will be deleted from the server soon.
Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
jferreira
Posts: 19
Joined: November 2nd, 2011, 1:12 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by jferreira »

Very serious topic. Been going to tracks since I was 2 years old. ALL forms of racing. Grew up in a racing family. Since when did ANY form of blocking become accepted in racing? Come on ... F1, one block is okay but 2 you get penalized... WHY is 1 block okay? Why do people accept that as a standard of fair play? IT's DANGEROUS!!
Have at it boys .... That came about about as soon as CrashCAR saw their rating falling. $$$$
Taking your normal line coming into turns or out of turns is expected. Staying to the right all the way down the straight at Roebling into turn 1 to protect the inside line from drafting by is fine. Coming over to crowd a person is the same as blocking. How do I know you are not going to keep coming over. So I have to lift anyways....
I feel blocking is NOT racing.
This is open wheel club racing. When I was 8 years old I was taught blocking was not allowed. I am now 60, and I feel the same now as I did then.
John
Autowerks
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Joined: March 10th, 2008, 12:32 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by Autowerks »

Just to be clear, Roger was running along the pit wall when Brad came over to block Rogers passing and there was contact !
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Are these actions not part of Brad Stouts driving history or reputation? Whining after the race is unacceptable and shows a lack of a plan for dealing with such driving behavior. I remember Stout and Davis unhappy over something at the 45th Party.

The plan dictates what our actions are going to be if a driver blocks you.

1) Are you fighting for the win?
2) Is the blocking driver a friend? Maybe you dislike the guy. Or worst of all, he has no respect for you on the track!
3) Do you have the guts AND budget to defend/proceed with your pass attempt if you believe there is going to be an accident? Complex issue...Is this the first race of a double weekend or multi race dates? How is the budget going for the year? Etc.

The point is that you have a options for every competitive driver in the field. When the blocking situation develops, you have already formulated a plan of action. You have reviewed the details of your options calmly before the start of the race. These blockers are not going to stop their activities until they are taken out a few times. If you chose inaction for any number of valid reasons, then do not be upset that you followed your plan and the other guy won... after all you let him win by not taking him out.

Brian
Bill_Bonow
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:53 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by Bill_Bonow »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:... after all you let him win by not taking him out.
I gotta party with this cowboy! :mrgreen:
Bill Bonow
" I love Formula Vees, they're delicious!"
CitationFV21
Posts: 272
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by CitationFV21 »

hardingfv32-1 wrote: These blockers are not going to stop their activities until they are taken out a few times. If you chose inaction for any number of valid reasons, then do not be upset that you followed your plan and the other guy won... after all you let him win by not taking him out.

Brian
Hmmm - maybe you could file a protest first?

ChrisZ
fvracer27
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Joined: October 25th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by fvracer27 »

Remove the mirrors solves a few proplems.

Keeps the driver in front driving his/her line and not mirror driving
Makes the overtaking driver not assume "They must have seen me comeing"
Gives overtaking driver no excuse "He/she blocked me"

In karts we never had mirrors and I don't recall ever having a problem with it even with 35 125cc shifters doing a standing start and getting up to speed of 100 mph
Mark Filip
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FV80
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by FV80 »

In this day and time, we DEFINITELY need mirrors... but it would be nice if Control could TURN THEM OFF starting the last lap - especially in this particular case :-).

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
MarkP-2
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Joined: May 14th, 2012, 9:37 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by MarkP-2 »

I hate to say it, but Brian does have a point, although a rather expensive one if you're involved! :roll:

Mark
smsazzy
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by smsazzy »

I'm sorry, but intentionally wrecking someone is never okay, and anyone who does it should be banned from the sport.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
MarkP-2
Posts: 50
Joined: May 14th, 2012, 9:37 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by MarkP-2 »

Who said intentionally? If the lead driver continues to come over on you, and leaves no room then they're at fault! They knew you were there
and they intentionally made the first &/or second move to place themselves in a position for a wreck to occur, then the blame is on them! If
you can't react, nor know their intentions, how is it the passing drivers fault?
brian
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by brian »

I agree with Stephen on this one. All one has to do is look at what happened a few weekends ago in NASCAR when push came to shove. An engine went through a fence and people were hurt. There is a process for dealing with bad driving and it does not involve wrecking, intentionally or not. I made the choice many years ago to not ignore driving issues. Maybe breaking my neck after another driver lost his cool had something to do with it. If calmly talking doesn't work, I promise and deliver on a formal protest. I think we all, sooner or later, know the drivers we want to run with and who we don't. But if you don't write the paper, don't expect things to change; especially the other driver's attitude. Be safe out there, it's only a sport.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
smsazzy
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by smsazzy »

MarkP-2 wrote:Who said intentionally?
Um, Brian Harding did, and then you did.

"after all you let him win by not taking him out." - Brian Harding

"I hate to say it, but Brian does have a point, although a rather expensive one if you're involved!" - You

I don't see any ambiguity in the phrase "taking him out".
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
SR Racing
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by SR Racing »

This is for a trophy guys. You aren't making a living at it and don't need a win to protect your livelyhood. This is simply a protest/race enforcement issue. (BTW, I did NOT see the issue being discussed.)
tiagosantos
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by tiagosantos »

Jim - even those who did see the issue can't apparently agree on what happened. Steve was a couple car lengths behind (if that) and says they weren't alongside, autowerks posted here saying they were definitely side by side and Brad pushed Roger into the wall.

I think we can all agree that blocking is bad, we all hate it. Sometimes there are gray areas, and this may or may not have been one, we'll probably never know!

And as silly and provocative as the "take him out" comment was, it barely has any relevance. Thankfully I don't think we'll be seeing Brian driving and taking out the competition anytime soon :)
fvracer27
Posts: 247
Joined: October 25th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by fvracer27 »

FV80 wrote:In this day and time, we DEFINITELY need mirrors...
Steve, FV80
Why?
I never really understood the reasons.
Why do we need to know what's going on behind us? To block someone from passing?
I'm just asking because I don't see a need unless I'm backing into the garage.
Mark Filip
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FV80
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by FV80 »

fvracer27 wrote:
FV80 wrote:In this day and time, we DEFINITELY need mirrors...
Steve, FV80
Why?
I never really understood the reasons.
Why do we need to know what's going on behind us? To block someone from passing?
I'm just asking because I don't see a need unless I'm backing into the garage.
Because we race with idiots that drive F5, FF, FM, FC, FE, FA, FB, DSR, CSR (and probably more) cars - that's why. I have personally avoided quite a number of accidents by watching my mirrors .. mostly right about TURN-IN. UNFORTUNATELY, that has not prevented me from having crash damage from them since it is almost impossible to look "at the last instant" when we SHOULD be focusing on braking points, Apexes and turn-in points :-). It also costs me something in the neighborhood of 1.5 seconds per lap at most races. (I'm seriously considering leaving SCCA for some other venue ... if I can ever FIND one .. where there is single class (or nearly so) racing.)

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
CitationFV21
Posts: 272
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by CitationFV21 »

fvracer27 wrote:
FV80 wrote:In this day and time, we DEFINITELY need mirrors...
Steve, FV80
Why?
I never really understood the reasons.
Why do we need to know what's going on behind us? To block someone from passing?
I'm just asking because I don't see a need unless I'm backing into the garage.
If you are racing in a mixed group you need to know when the Fords (I am sorry Formula Fs) are going to dive bomb you. I feel sorry for other regions where the Atlantics run with the Vees - Like at Road Atlanta!

ChrisZ

Edit - I wrote this before Steve - but forgot to hit submit..... :lol:
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by smsazzy »

CitationFV21 wrote:Edit - I wrote this before Steve - but forgot to hit submit..... :lol:
Sounds like he blocked you to get his posted first. Did he make one move or two? :-)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
GrapeFarmerAl
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Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by GrapeFarmerAl »

Go to impound...drivers involved put on 10oz gloves....Marquess of Queensberry rules sure would make impound more interesting
jpetillo
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Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Was Brad's Brundage Cup block OK?

Post by jpetillo »

Unless you've raced without mirrors, you may not understand what the pro-anti-mirror guys are talking about.

When you drive an open wheel race car, you drive a different style than if you raced a closed wheel car for fear of launching one or both cars. When you race without mirrors you also change racing style. Motorcycles road race without mirrors, are dramatically faster than what our cars do, and do so in mixed classes. It was an odd idea when I started racing bikes, but once out there without mirrors you see that it works just fine.

When no one has mirrors, you can no longer dive bomb a slower driver because you know he has no way to know you're there. As you approach the slower racer you can't commit to anything before you know what their racing line will be, and you adapt. I have no belief that SCCA would ever change or even give it a trial, but I think it can make mixed class racing safer. John
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