Minimum Weight Survey

What should be the minimum weight in Formula Vee?

1025
32
46%
1030
2
3%
1035
3
4%
1040
7
10%
1045
2
3%
1050
22
31%
1150 (I want my malamute to ride with me)
1
1%
950 (I am secretly an ant)
1
1%
 
Total votes: 70

smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

If it were up to you to decide the ideal weight for Formula Vee, what would be your preference?
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Bob Posner
Posts: 70
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 7:35 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Bob Posner »

1050
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by SR Racing »

The problem with changing the minimum weight is that all of us engine builders will have to go back and redesign the heads to work best at the chosen weight.
Obviously meant to be funny. However, gauranteed there will be one or more that will make the claim.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by brian »

Geeze Jim, you obiviously don't understand the complexity of cylinder heads! Of course we will have to redesign. If we could only aggregate all those winter discoveries we'd have 70 hp!

Honestly, I'm not sure how much weight I could hang on my car if the weight minimum is increased but I will vote for an increase anyway. Truth is it will take more than 10 or 15 pounds to get some near minimum. Short of a lead floor, I don't think many could add 25 pounds. I have 1 ft lead squares that are about 3/16 thick and they weigh 6# each.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by jpetillo »

I know what you mean. I've already added 37 lbs and start with the tank full. Another 25 lbs would be difficult.
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

Brian/Jpetillo,

Why don't you guys give up the salads and start going for the pizza buffet!

Seriously though, I would be willing to bet an increase would HELP a lot more than it would hurt. I also think this is something that may actually increase FV numbers. You may have one or two people use it as an excuse to not race and say they couldn't find a place to add the weight, but far more people would be helped by it.

Safety is another good reason for this. How many people are going to aluminum floors, thinner walled tubing, ultra small/light hardware, etc.

I am all for increasing the minimum weight.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
Matt
Posts: 86
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 7:55 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Matt »

I already have an 0.092" thick steel floor and 40 lbs of lead in the car. I also start the race with a full tank. Some tracks have me at minimum, while others have 5 to 10 lbs over. One track has me at 5 under.

You have to take into account the variation in track scales.

If the 1050 was put in I will have to add another 25 lbs of lead.

While considering the higher minimum will make it seem better for the weight what about the cockpit size will still be a factor.

MattFV61
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

I think most can find a car to fit into, it is the weight issue that is really a killer. I think a heavy floor is the best answer for someone like you. That moves your center of gravity even lower. I still say more pizza and beer might be more fun though.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

Should we assume then that 59% of the FV community wants a weight increase?
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by problemchild »

Whether the number is 40%, 50%, or 60%, if more than 1/3 of our community feels it is an issue, then I would hope the political powers would treat it as a real issue and deal with it. Unlike many issues, there is no significant downside. Any perceived downside would be $25 worth of lead and an hours worth of labor ..... mostly just aggravation. No one will be asked to throw away hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of equipment in this effort to equal the playing field.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Speedsport »

Being a large driver, I guess I should welcome a minimum increase. But I don't think I want one. I'm 6'3", probably among the taller of most drivers. I can get within 5-7 lbs of minimum weight when I really watch my diet and fitness. If I can make it at 6'3", then most others should be able to as well. I don't think we should raise it because people themselves are to heavy. If you can't make the minimum, and it really matters to you, then drop a few pounds on yourself.

Raising the minimum allows those who are already adding weight to put an even larger amount down in the floor. Larger drivers naturally have a disadvantage since our weight is distributed over a large area, in theory raising the CG by a tiny bit. Allowing smaller drivers to lower theirs even further doesn't seem like the right approach.

Someone should be able to meet the minimum being around 200#. There are a very small amount of racers who are over 200 lbs without much weight to loose.

I would like to see adding at the most 5 lbs to minimum.
JimR
Posts: 91
Joined: August 21st, 2006, 6:30 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by JimR »

Ditto to what Speedsport said.
For what its worth the SRF forum has a similiar thread except the guys lobbying for increasing the minimum there are 250+ and the seats in that class are like lazyboys for a guy like me at 6 ft, 200lbs. The FV weight I believe is correct and has proven valid for lots of years. Leave it alone.
Jim Regan
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by brian »

All good points and I agree with everyone except Greg. Buddy, if you can buy lead for $25 a pound I can resell down here for a nice markup. I think we should add years to the young guys too. :lol:
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Fact: Americans have been on a weight gain trend for years.
Fact: People trend to overweight as they get older.
Fact: Most FV drivers are OLD and overweight.

Our rules could reflect these trends.

Brian
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by problemchild »

I cannot imagine that someone could not add 25 lbs of ballast for $25 .... but even if it is $100, it is still far cheaper than removing 25 lbs on a competitive car. Why are there so many FV car/drivers that are 40-50 lbs over if it was that simple? If those guys could just spend $500, or lose 10 lbs, to be safe and competitive, I expect many of them would have done that years ago. While some of us are not the superior quality of human being, as suggested by some, and should push away from the table sooner and cycle 20000 miles per year,I expect that most are typical American people of reasonable intelligence and health, who want to race FV.

It is that simple, for 25% of Fv competitors to add 25 lbs and another portion of Fv competitors to add some weight, so that a large number of FV competitors can be more competitive.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Speedsport
Posts: 170
Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Speedsport »

While some of us are not the superior quality of human being, as suggested by some, and should push away from the table sooner and cycle 20000 miles per year,
Gee, how did I know Greg would find some way to make my opinion into some form of superiority issue. :roll: Right on que.
Why are there so many FV car/drivers that are 40-50 lbs over if it was that simple?
Because it's not simple, that's why. Loosing weight is difficult. But it still all comes down to how bad do you want it - if you want to make minimum bad enough, you'll loose the weight. Period. It's so much easier to complain about it and lobby for a rule change though, isn't it?
John Deonarine
Posts: 72
Joined: November 5th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by John Deonarine »

What is the minimum weight for a Formula First?

John
Mad Dog Racing
Posts: 68
Joined: July 18th, 2007, 11:58 am

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Mad Dog Racing »

When I bought my current car, it was set up for a 205# driver and I had to put 60# of lead in the car. Since then, I have worked to heavy-up the car, adding cross-bracing and stiffeners, full-size bolts, nuts and washers. It had paper washers and cut-off bolts with airframe nuts. All that added about 10#, so now I'm down to 45-50# of lead. If I went with the reliability of the aftermarket starter, I would have to add back in another ten pounds somewhere.

If I put Dena's son-in-law in the car, he weighs 125#, I would need 70-75# of lead now and 100# if he had to make 1050. It's tough to put 100# of ballast in a formula car. You can bolt a couple of flywheels in the passenger seat area of a door-slammer, but I have already filled the space between frame rails with lead to get 50# in. And the big fight I always have is "bolting it down", what the heck do you bolt all this lead to anyway? Between the fuel cell, the seat (or where my butt sits on the floorpan), the fire bottle and the battery, I just have room to touch my heels down in front of the pedals.

Maybe what we need is a rule requiring side pods between the wheels. (No, then we would look like the lawnmowers.)

I understand it's tough to try to make minimum weight, but it's not just bolt in another twenty pounds of lead for some of us either.
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

For the first time I remember, Greg and i actually agree on something. I bought my car and lost 40 pounds, gained some back and lost another 27. I'm at 185 pounds and I am 25-30 pounds over minimum weight.

While I do agree that we could all shed a few pounds, except perhaps Mike, why should we have to? I thought this was a hobby? I want to be competitive and not have to be anorexic (not sure of the spelling on that) I am in the gym 4-5 days a week. I run 5 miles twice a week, do the eliptical for an hour and lift weights twice. I have spent thousands of dollars on a personal traininer, all to get within 25 pounds of minimum.

So, should I sell my car? Build a new Vortech for $25-30,000? That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the class?

Should everyone out there who is overweight have to build a new car to get to minimum?

I am far from a 250 pound lazy boy riding SRF driver, I just want to be competitive and I think I've shown with my efforts that not everyone can get to minimum by pushing back from the table.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
CF 15
Posts: 14
Joined: May 20th, 2008, 5:27 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by CF 15 »

I am sorry if you can make weight at 185, What car are you driving? You do not have to buy a Vortec to make weight. I know for a fact, that at that weight you could be in a Protoform, Womer, and Caracal. and still have to add weight. I have an 1/8 inch steel belly pan from the fromt bulkhead to the rear roll bar and 35# in my car to make min. I weigh 195 and if I exercised like I should then I would be 170. But instead of pushing back from the table I choose to be inovative in how my car is assembled and the materials put into it. I think adding weight is not the SAFE thing to do for most. If weight is that big of an issue for you to be competitive then you need to look at other car makes or avenues
dd46637
Posts: 135
Joined: December 24th, 2006, 9:38 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by dd46637 »

John wrote:What is the minimum weight for a Formula First?

John
1125
Matt King
Posts: 304
Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by Matt King »

I'm curious what an average weight is for the various popular chassis, minus the variables of driver and fuel. My Citation has an aluminum floor and very little extraneous equipment and weighs around 850 with fuel. With me in it (205) I'm usually at 1050-1060 post race. I could fill it with less fuel and get a lightweight starter to drop a few pounds, plus I could lose 10-15 myself, but even then, I'm a long way from needing any ballast!
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by brian »

That seems a bit heavy. My one off requires about 12 lbs of ballast when Im in the 173 range with gear. I use a lot of thick wall steel in my car. Back in the day a stripped Lynx weighed about 835
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by jpetillo »

I agree with Mad Dog, it's hardly as easy as just slapping in yet another XX lbs.

Many have raised good points, but let me add some others that we should consider...
1) People who have had to add weight already know how easy or hard it is to add weight. Let's not tell them how easy it is, let's ask them what the effort would be for them. For those who have already added 25-50 lbs to make minimum, to now add a another 25 lbs probably requires backing it all out and starting over. That's time and money! For some people, yet adding more weight would now suggest that they have the wrong car.

2) About this being a hobby, it means that this is what we do for fun and we have to squeeze it into our precious free time and spare money. If that's the case, I'd suggest that we don't lightly ask people to spend their time (or money if they don't have the extra time or need something welded in) to make the effort to even the field for those that don't meet minimum weight. I think we need to know why folks aren't meeting minimum weight. Let's find that out first! That the field may be getting older is probably not that significant in this regard, because some will retire and they are replaced with younger (are they really lighter?) people.

If someone bought a car that happened to be heavier than average, then they knew that going in. If they happen to be big guys, that's a more difficult issue to address. When we have my daughter drive our car, we have to add weight. But, it would help if I could give her some additional weight through added muscle that would make it easier for better car control. Her light weight is not a benefit to car control. Can't give her parity there.

It's just a hobby - perhaps 25 lbs over minimum is nothing! I leave that much extra weight in my car when I switch it from my daughter being the driver to me. It has affected my time not one bit from what I can measure with a stopwatch. In fact, the stopwatch tells me that I'm faster with it! No, I don't think there is any correlation - just that it's in the noise for me. I'd take the out, but I really don't have the time to do so - it's a pain in the neck, and it's my hobby and doesn't decrease the fun! Like Mike says, when I want to win badly enough I'll put in the effort for that last tenth. I'm no less serious about racing than anyone out there, just that I have other demands on my time like many others. Understanding that I don't want people asking me to do something that takes extra time away from me is why I think very seriously before I ask someone else to spend time and money to level the playing field for me.

Some problems with the argument that this will increase safety is the following:
- For the guys who add extra weight, they have to stick masses here and there, and many of those arguably could be attached better to keep it in place in the case of an accident. The added weight is often a safety hazard. I know from when I added weight for my daughter that I wanted that 20 lbs here and 15 lbs there to be attached so that it would stay intact in an accident. That was not easy and I spent a lot of time and money putting bolting/welding in. If we want to put the extra weight into added safety structures, then it's off to the welder - a certified welder. I can personally tell you that this is not cheap! The welded-in weight also devalues the car since we can't sell it to someone who is heavier, now. We really should be concerned that safety will be decreased for those who may now add the extra weight even more precariously. There is little doubt in my mind that this will happen in many cases.
- For the guys who want the minimum weight raised, my guess is that many in fact won't increase the safety of their cars. Many won't be able to without yet again being over the minimum. If they get to add weight to meet a raised minimum, many will just add ballast and not structure like most other have done.
- Once we raise the minimum weight, say 25 lbs, for safety, someone will then bring the subject up again and ask for perhaps another 25 lbs - and that request will be no less valid.
- If 25 lbs really slows us down, then FV's lack of speed parity with other classes is exacerbated.

All of these points can be countered by folks on either side of the fence on this issue. They are here to promote discussion.

Now, I'm not saying that the minimum weight isn't yet another change to consider - it may be a great thing. I just want to point out that proposing changes needs to fully consider the real impact on others' time and money and car value, and then that we're very sure the change will really impact the perceived problem. Let's be certain we understand the problem, first. Oh, and let's first ask the guys who have to add weight what the impact will be on them instead of telling them.

Of course these same sort of questions really need to be asked when we consider any change.

Sorry, I apparently stepped on the soapbox again. John
smsazzy
Posts: 703
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 5:56 pm

Re: Minimum Weight Survey

Post by smsazzy »

jpetillo wrote:1) People who have had to add weight already know how easy or hard it is to add weight. Let's not tell them how easy it is, let's ask them what the effort would be for them. For those who have already added 25-50 lbs to make minimum, to now add a another 25 lbs probably requires backing it all out and starting over. That's time and money!
For those that have nevery tried to take 25 pounds off a car, don't sit back and tell me how easy it is either. That's WAY MORE time and WAY MORE money. This started as a simple excersice to see what the general consensus was. Considering how the spec manifold is being considered (and I am one of the ones for it) with what one could argue based on the posts on this board-by a smaller margin of consensus, should the committee give serious consideration to this issue as well? I think so.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
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