SRF vs VEE

[brian]

As some of you may know I was envolved in a major shunt with some SRF's. The following is a recap written by Charlie Turner, a long time vee runner and good friend:

"At the start of the race, the SRFs out-dragged the Vees down to Turn 1
(a 135 degree, banked, almost flat in fourth gear turn for Vees) and
then "parked".

An SRF hit Brian McCarthy, spinning him around. I was trying to miss
the slow SRFs by going around the outside of the turn, following a
faster SRF.

The SRF I was following suddenly turned left to avoid Brian, hitting
Dennis Andrade and knocking him off course. When the SRF turned left, I
caught my first glimpse of Brian, right in front of me, sideways in the
track and sliding towards the outside.

I tried to turn right to avoid Brian, but my left front wheel hit his
left front, and I went over him, hitting his right side with my right
side.

My beam was bent, shock mounts broken, LF wheel dented, LR drum
shattered, backing plate destroyed, and rear subframe twisted. The
spindles and axles look OK, and no apparent body or engine damage.

Brian's car was about the same, with two broken tie rods, a shattered LR
drum and ruined backing plate, LF wheel dented, transaxle tailshaft and
shift linkage broken and rear frame cracked (where he was hit by the
SRF), with some body damage where my LR wheel drove across his engine
cover.

Dennis had a bent beam and some minor body damage.

No one hurt but we were very annoyed."

Folks, this is the third time this year I've been punted by these cars and it's a case of simply not being able to see us. We could argue about situational awareness but the truth is my tire "donuts" lie abbout 3" below the tops of the fenders. I can tell you I got the crap scared out of me when I found myself going nose to nose with a SRF during that spin. The chance of one of those taxicabs going right over the top of a vee is more likely than we're willing to think about. I plan to write the CRB and BOD to request a change in this combination and would like your support. GCR 3.5.2 spells out class combinations so the CRB clearly has the authority to act. thanks

[CSatterley]

I totally agree Brian, I've only had the to run with them a couple times and found they just can't see a vee. There is no reason they should'nt run with the slower tin tops. They learn to be agressive and they have the ability to rub one another but in a vee its a totally different situation. I don't think I would do races that have that grouping. Do the FF/FC have issues running with the sport racers all the time?

[kps]

Brian, In the Central Florida Region we watched our car count almost disappear at regional events. Over the ten years I have raced here just about every Vee driver was taken out by SRF's. Last Oct. two of us had our cars demolished by SRF's in one regional. I rolled 5 or 6 times ending up upside down on fire. It took quite some time to get me out as the fire vehicle got stuck in the fence opening. I got into it in the ambulance with the spec driver and continued my rant with the stewards and the club official responsible for groupings. I pointed out that the two fastest cars on the track had been demolished and both of us could have been killed. I talked to Fred Clark and he advised me to write to National Risk Management and VP of Club racing and to copy the club official responsible for groupings. I was successful with changing the grouping here so that we now run with fords and 500's These groups understand open wheel dangers and usually don't have any problem getting by us. National responded but took no action. These cars are 600 lbs heavier and are driven by some of the most agressive drivers on the track. The top drivers are no problem but from mid pack down look out. John

[hardingfv32-1]

If I'm the steward handling scheduling and I can NOT group SFR with FF and/or FV this is what is going to happen:

A) You get sent packing to play with the fast boys and I get another spot to run SM or a regional group.
B) FV is excluded from running because they can not fill a run group. I'm not wasting my run time (revenue) on a small run group.

At Miller the winged group was pretty big but could have taken the 2 FFs. The small fender group could have absorbed the SFR. It would be asking a lot of the region to run a group for 6 FVs and say 2 FFs. It is the FVs that are missing a home when their numbers are small.

2 FFs, 6 SFRs and 6 FVs, you guys could not agree to stay apart (without the stewards help) at the start? I know there was no split start, etc, but if this is a known risk why would 6 FV's, who know each other, drive into the first turn among the SFRs? When I say know each other, I'm implying they know exactly what the race results will be under normal conditions.

Brian

[RickyBobby]

Brian,

With all due respect, your comments about "sending us packing" are disturbing and frankly insulting. I, too, have been on the receiving end (twice) of an overly aggressive Spec Wrecker Ford. It is this kind of attitude that pushes us "amateur" racers away from being a part of the SCCA scene. I never see problems when the large vintage groups put on events with smaller groups of certain specs. In fact, the wings and slicks cars often run with the vintage FF, while the formula vees run with "tin tops" that have similar speeds (read - closing speeds). The CFR recognized the issue and potential risks, why can't National (and you) have similar compassion for the FV guys. Besides, FV has been around a lot longer than SRF. Don't let us become extinct.

[brian]

The last time we ran MIller, the stewards gave us a staggered start. On the first day, the pole sitter established a very large gap and we still caught the SRF very quickly. The second race I was promised a black flag stop and go by the Chief steward if I held the group that far back. 200 yards max I was told. We caught the SRF's in turn one. The previous day's pole sitter was not happy with the gap at the start and told me. Once he learned that I was told how to set the gap, he understood. There is this huge resistance to split starts by the stewards everywhere I run and I'm not sure how to over come this issue.

A BOD member suggested that the vee group make a proposal and submit it to them. Maybe the vee committee can help us and tell them to combine the SRF with small bore and fill our group with FF, FC, FE & FB. Granted they're hella faster but at least they can see us. Any other ideas? Let's work something up and pass it to the committee.

[hardingfv32-1]

Boy, I did not use anyones name and I'm still insulting someone.

Brian is completely right about the resistances to split starts and, when you get one, how you are told to perform it. That said this is still motor racing where you must manage the risks you take. Unless something has changed, Brian is good enough to coast into turn one at the start of this race in last place and still win 20 or so laps later. I know Brian will be mad for me saying this, but unless the same SRF driver was involved each time, an accident investigator would question why the same FV driver is having so much trouble with the SRF. Maybe his front running position in most races puts him in these bad situations all the time.

The car count distribution for the run groups at this event were quite normal. We have had grouping issues for years. What has changed that is going to make a solution any more possible now. If anything, the lower FV car counts in most regions is going to make a FV favorable outcome less likely.

The FV committee are sharp guys, but they are going to need a lot of help crafting a solution. Start posting some ideas and hammer out a solution.

Brian

[Matt]

I had the "Best Seat in the House” for the incident in turn 1 at Miller”. I was on the inside and let Brian in since he had the better line. My plan was to tuck in behind Brain and follow him out of turn 1. The SRF came from the outside of me and Brain and just turned down and into Brian which started the whole thing. I managed to miss everything and came out untouched by shear luck.
Brian did not dive into the turn, as I said, I was inside Brian.

I really wish people would keep their uninformed speculation out of a discussion such as this.

Due to the strange rational of the SCCA procedures I spent the rest of the race behind 2 SRF who would not let me by, even though I was much faster through the twisty bits.

We often say that the SRF can not see us in their mirrors, but I spent a lot of time watching the driver’s eyes in their mirrors just before they would chop me off.

One thing that can be done to improve SRF rear vision would be to move the mirrors more out board so that they can clearly see down the side. Since SRF is an SCCA car, this should just be a simple addition to the SRF specification.

Do I believe that this mirror change will happen, no.

I am sorry to see the amount of damage to Brian, Charlie and Denise.

Matt
FV61

[Doug Carter]

Boy, I did not use anyones name and I'm still insulting someone.

It's a finely-honed talent, Brian.


IMO, Vees and SRFs don't belong in the same race group. As I said on ApexSpeed, you don't see those race groups combined here in CenDiv, and if they were, I'd never consider stepping foot in a FV.

That said, it's obviously a Regional issue, as this is not done this way across the country. Start by writing your region and campaign for a change in their methods. FV and SRF don't play together well, there is no reason to keep putting people in danger.

If all else fails, speak with your entry fees along with your fellow FV drivers, and let the regions know that you won't be showing up until changes for the sake of safety are made. No one can afford to lose customers these days.





doug

[72jeff]

You will NEVER see me in a race with SRF.

[MDURKEE]

My one and only car to car collision was with a SRF. Anyone who thinks they belong in the same race group as a FV or FST needs their head examined. Those cars sit up so high you can practicaly run under them. Here in GreatLakes division our stuarts for the most part have enough sence not to put them in our race group. It's been years since I have seen them grouped together. Sorry to hear that some divisions don't have a clue. When I recieve an entry form the first thing I do is check reace groupings. I just don't show up to events that group us with SRF. They don't deserve my entry fee if they are that stupid.

Matthew

[Matt King]

Here in CenDiv at every race I have attended this year, Regional and National, the SRF group is large enough to have its own dedicated run group, so this is a moot point. FV is usually grouped only with F500 in the Nationals and usually with FST, FF and CFF in Regionals. At the last regional at BHF they moved FF/CFF into the Wings & Things group. Sucked for them!

[brian]

There's an old expression, "All those husbands of Zaa Zaa Gabor couldn't have all been bad." When I have an accident or a series like this year, I honestly search my mind, and others, to learn if there's something I could have done differently. This time, I talked to 33 year veteran of the class, and participant in the race, and asked if I was too agressive or contributed to the problem. While his view was limited, his response was in the negative. We all have to weigh our actions but never have enough time during the race to ponder anything. Anyone who has raced with me knows that when in doubt, I will back out and rely on my little car to make it up later. After a broken neck, two knee operations and a shoulder replacement, I much prefer to sit up on the way out of a track.

The body is at the glass man and the car will be dissassembled today. So far so good, it may not be pretty but it will be at Road America.

P.S. Brian, No offense taken. I've known you for many years and learned long ago to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

[flat tappet]

My one and only car to car collision was with a SRF. Anyone who thinks they belong in the same race group as a FV or FST needs their head examined. Those cars sit up so high you can practicaly run under them. Here in GreatLakes division our stuarts for the most part have enough sence not to put them in our race group. It's been years since I have seen them grouped together. Sorry to hear that some divisions don't have a clue. When I recieve an entry form the first thing I do is check reace groupings. I just don't show up to events that group us with SRF. They don't deserve my entry fee if they are that stupid.

Matthew

Why not ask the Chief Stewards at all track to race VEE'S in the same class as GT1's, SPO's,Datona Prototypes,etc...LOL. Any region that mixes open and closed wheel cars in the same race is asking for trouble IMHO!

I don't believe that at test and tune days at LRP, the powers will allow open and closed on the track even for testing!

[jpetillo]

I don't believe that at test and tune days at LRP, the powers will allow open and closed on the track even for testing!

Perhaps not. However, they do mix SRFs with open wheel at test days at NHMS, but usually only after the open wheel group proves to be too small. Last year I showed up and they had GT1s running with the vees. I didn't participate.

[fv31]

preaching to the choir with me. i raised concerns about this for the nashville race. luckily only one or two showed so it was not an issue.

i lost a car in central florida (sebring) several years ago to the SRF's.....along with another vee driver. nasty wreck and and it totally lunched my car, as well as the other vee driver's car. i basically folded the independent rear suspension on the SRF up under the engine. he was a rental driver with unknown experience. i went back for one more event after a full rebuild and repair...more of the same insanity. the race lasted 3 laps before the SRF's started eating each other and a SRF driver wound up being lifeflighted out of the track. luckily no vee drivers were involved.....but to drive all the way to sebring for a 3 lap race is just stupid. i ain't been back.

i won't lie when i say that i've used the SRF's more than once to sneak by another vee. you tuck in behind them in that monster draft and the overtaken vee driver can't even see you back there until you're already beside them. you have to be careful....as the SRF driver can't see you back there either. therein lies the rub.

it all comes down to physics. much heavier cars with closed wheels banging with much lighter cars with open wheels. it's just stupid.

bill
fv31

[hardingfv32-1]

Maybe this is just an issue of driver training. There were accidents when we first raced with F500s. I don't know if statically things are better now with F500 vs FV accidents, but there is no call for them to be sent to another group. How do we know that the SFR/FV drivers won't learn to race together peacefully in the future.

ASSUMING that there is no run group for FVs (too few FF/FV/F500 entered) where do you want the FVs grouped? You need a plan before asking for a rule restricting the SFR/FV group.

Brian

[jpetillo]

That's a good point and a good question. We ran earlier this year with FF, FC, FE - all the open wheel cars - at NHMS and it was surprisingly not bad. I was amazed! But, there were not many cars of any one other class- FV had the most. Maybe that's the issue. If there are a bunch of SRFs - or any one other class - dicing for it, and we get in the way, then perhaps that's where the problem starts. Then if they have the protection of fenders, it's just that much worse. Brian, to answer your question, my very limited experience would tell me to go with any other open wheel group. At least they don't want to tangle tires. John

[fv87]

I have to add my $.02 on this one. During the Spring Drivers School at Summit Point I got punted by an SRF. I did the Fall School in 2008 and it was all formula cars (FV, FF, FC, FE, etc.) and I don't recall any car to car contact.

At the Spring 2009 school there were at least 5 SRF's with us. I was warned about how they can't see us, the speed difference, etc. During the session after lunch on Saturday I saw one closing behind me through turn 8, since it was my second school I wanted to make sure there no incidents so as I exited turn 9 I stayed on the line but squeezed left a little and pointed the guy by on the right. I bobbled a little (watched the mirrors a little too much) and was recovering, but the SRF tried making it by anyway. I was to the left of the track and he hit me hard on the right rear wheel, I got spun around and shot across the track off the right side. The car flew up a newly bulldozed embankment and launching me in the air like a ski jump where I subsequenlty did a 360 degree barrel roll and landed (luckily) on my wheels!

Of course there was significant damage: It destroyed the wheel (it looked like the end of a frozen soda can), it stripped off an axle nut that was torqued to 271 ft. lbs, broke the coil spring retainer cap off the zero roll shock, bent steering wheel, screwed up fuel cell, belly pan rivets knocked out, etc., etc). Believe it or not, somehow we got the car back on track right before noon on Sunday. Because the incident and subsequent repairs caused me to miss track time it also caused issues with getting my license, but I won't go into all that. Later I found my fuel cell to be too damaged the impact caused it to spider-web crack all over, so I had to replace it. With all the repairs it ended up costing me over $1,000.

The bottom line is I think they have too much mass combined with more speed and lack of visibility (the side of their body blocks the drivers view of a Vee alongside them) to run safely with FV. I won't enter an event if I see they will be grouped with us.

[flat tappet]

preaching to the choir with me. i raised concerns about this for the nashville race. luckily only one or two showed so it was not an issue.

i lost a car in central florida (sebring) several years ago to the SRF's.....along with another vee driver. nasty wreck and and it totally lunched my car, as well as the other vee driver's car. i basically folded the independent rear suspension on the SRF up under the engine. he was a rental driver with unknown experience. i went back for one more event after a full rebuild and repair...more of the same insanity. the race lasted 3 laps before the SRF's started eating each other and a SRF driver wound up being lifeflighted out of the track. luckily no vee drivers were involved.....but to drive all the way to sebring for a 3 lap race is just stupid. i ain't been back.

i won't lie when i say that i've used the SRF's more than once to sneak by another vee. you tuck in behind them in that monster draft and the overtaken vee driver can't even see you back there until you're already beside them. you have to be careful....as the SRF driver can't see you back there either. therein lies the rub.

it all comes down to physics. much heavier cars with closed wheels banging with much lighter cars with open wheels. it's just stupid.

bill
fv31

Why not just lump VEE's in with the GT1's and SPO's? Then you can really get a great draft!.....LOL. Seriously, NO enclosed bodywork cars and open wheelers in NER, not even for test and tune...what a dumb idea. Why not allow Formula 1 cars to run at Lemans and Sebring along with the prototypes, Vettes, Aston Martins.etc. They are all fast....no problem.

[fv31]

as for the question of who i'd rather run with than SRF.....

you can put me with atlantics. FC. FF. F5. FSCCA. pick one, or pick all. i run with them often and we all do fine. we have similar visibility, and as anyone who runs open wheel can testify, if you mix it up with another open wheel car.....it's a crap shoot as to who goes flying. could be you, could be the other guy. consequently, we're all very "respectful" of each other's space. the SRF guys bang on each other with regularity....and they aren't used to respecting someone elses space......a requirement in open wheel.

i've also found that the ASR, DSR, and CSR guys often came from open wheel and know the deal. they may have fenders, but they drive the car like it's an open wheeler.

Big bore formula, small bore formula, wings, skateboards, drunks on bicycles and golf carts, anything but SRF.

bill
fv31

[FVartist]

I just sent in my request to the CRB to not allow this grouping.

[caracal76]

Anyone who can post here and deny that this is a problem simply hasn't had it happen to them. Yet.

I ran with Bill at Nashville and can say that race was only an exception that proves the rule. The SRFs did a split start behind the Vees and stayed there only because the Vees outpaced them (for whatever reason). Any faster SRFs on that twisty course and it easily could have been a mess. That's speculation, of course.

I have also had the experience of being held up at Barber by an SRF who hosed me down with oil the entire time after knocking a Vee out of the race on lap one. The two classes simply don't mix and there's no denying it.

On the other hand, we've run several SEDIV races with a "formula everything" class and had no on-track incidents. You've got to watch those mirrors after about seven laps, but that's likely the only time the winged cars and Vees will see each other. And, as mentioned above, the drivers of open-wheel cars know how to pass (and be passed) without making contact. So if your division hasn't got any other choice, my experience would suggest this as a solution. Your FEs and FAs might grumble, but I don't know of anyone who's lost a race because they had to lap me.

[brian]

It's imperative that everyone needs to write the CRB & BOD. Without pressure they will not ban this dangerous combination. I plan to send emails to Cal CLub and Utah region asking the combination not be made. If anyone knows of a region that does combine SRF & Vees, write them too. Thanks

[Steven McWilliams JR]

OK guys, I thought I'll throw this in...
my first time in my car at the Neson Ledges school this year I was running with SRF's, also young drivers. We diced back and forth, and respected each other. we are both young and we both did karting, maybe we both knew how to respect each other's space.
I blew my engine after 10 laps, and finished the school in a ITA civic

My second time in the car I was keeping up with some SRF's in the turns at Summit during a test day. but they would obviously pull away on the straight. One did dive in on me in the carousel, but I fortunately saw him, and moved out of the way. LUckily, the WDCR does a good job with open v. closed wheel, and providing that we have 16FV's every race, we are fortunate to have our own run group.

I am just wandering if anybody has talked to the SRF drivers? (in a non confronting way) I'm sure they get tired of getting suprsied by us popping out of their draft, on the inside of a corner, etc. I'm sure if people in the troubled regions talked to the SRF drivers they would agree, and write to the CRB too...No one likes crashing and ending other people's day early. After all, through the bumping the SRF's are good drivers, at least in the WDCR (not to mention the Miata guys are good too, but thats different). I don't know about you, but I would talk to the SRF guys, get their opinion on the group, and hopefully get some positive response to switching the FV's out of the SRF group.

Good luck,
Steven