FV Racing Sim Development

VDF1
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Joined: June 28th, 2006, 2:18 am

FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

For those interested in racing sim games there's a guy working on a Formula Vee @ http://www.rfactor.net/

He's now posted a couple of screen shots of his work so far:

http://forum.rscnet.org:80/showthread.p ... 819&page=3
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
fvkartguy
Posts: 245
Joined: April 20th, 2007, 10:37 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by fvkartguy »

So is this a good/realistic game?
and if I buy it now, will the FV thing just be an upgrade that I can download?
'Cause that would be AWESOME!
HendricksRacing Site:
www.HendricksRacing.net
fvkartguy
Posts: 245
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by fvkartguy »

Oh yeah... and can you use a steering wheel/pedal/shifter controller?
HendricksRacing Site:
www.HendricksRacing.net
VDF1
Posts: 127
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 2:18 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

This information was supplied to me by my son. I wrote him last night and asked what was causing the picture to not show up anymore. Here's his reply which includes an answer to your question, I hope:

"That forum is having technical difficulties. They're trying to fix it, but don't know when its gonna work again. http://www.racesimcentral.com is the same site, and they're posting updates on their progress towards fixing it.

At the interchange site, someone's replied to your post. You can point him to http://www.rfactorcentral.com . With rfactor, you buy the game, then all the mods and tracks at rfactorcentral.com are free to download. But because the FV is being made by "some guy", it may not be professional quality, but with rfactor, if you don't like it, you can fix it/change it yourself. At rfactor.net they provide the tools to modify the game."

Hope this helps.
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
G_Toronto
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by G_Toronto »

rFactor
G_Toronto
Posts: 3
Joined: March 6th, 2008, 11:02 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by G_Toronto »

In making an FVee simulation I need some questions answered.

What amount of g-force can current FVee cars attain in cornering?
Examples: maximum g-force in hard cornering is; 1.37g ..or.. 1.45g ..or... 1.58g ..or.. 1.68g .....etc...

Will an FVee ever flip over in hard spins, or extreme out-of-control turns?

Has anyone ever driven an FVee at LimeRock Park ?? ......if so, do you take the last three turns
(turns three, four, & five the last turn) at full throttle ??
What is an average lap time at Lime Rock? and lap record?

Where are the static roll centers for an FVee?
Front roll center?
Rear roll center with a Zero-Roll suspension?

What is the maximum horsepower & torque that an SCCA FVee would have?
example:
50HP at 6000 rpm
80Nm torque at 4500 rpm

Springs:
What would the typical FVee use for rear springs (spring rate) and what would the rear motion ratio be?
What would the front suspension spring rates be and what would the typical motion ratio be?

COG:
How high would the center-of-gravity be on an FVee (from the ground up)?

What would the typical front to rear weight ratio be for an FVee?
example:
600lbs rear / 425lbs front

Ride Height:
What is the average ride height an FVee car would typically use?
If I understand the rules correctly the lowest legal ride height is 40mm (4cm).

Tire Pressure:
What are the typical tire pressures an FVee car would use?

Camber & Caster:
What would the typical camber degrees be for an FVee car (front and back)?
What would the typical front caster be in degrees?

Fuel:
How large is the typical fuel tank in gallons?

Thanks for all your help.
VDF1
Posts: 127
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 2:18 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

First, I want to thank you for all your effort.

I've been racing your FV-sim on rFactor at tracks that I actually race at (mainly Vanport, i.e., Portland International Raceway, but also Laguna Seca) the last couple of days and the car feels remarkably like the real thing to me. As an example, I've run in the low 29s at PIR in real life and tonight I ran a 1:28 flat while racing online wih my son in his FV-sim. I'm sure if you get most of these questions answered it'll be even better. I can answer some of your questions:

FVs can definitely flip over especially if they slide sideways and hit a sharp curb or a steep trench in a dirt or grass runoff area, but I don't know our maximum g-force.

Typical fuel tank is 4 or 5 gallons and it's common for me during 15 or 20 minute sessions to have only a couple of gallons in the tank. I suspect for a 30-minute race (a typical FV race is 30 minutes) it's about 3.0 gallons at the start and about 0.5 at the end. I use a measuring stick so I don't know exactly how much fuel is in there--I just know how many cms I need in the tank at the end of a race so I'm above minimum weight of 1025 lbs.

Typical tires are 21.0x5.0x15 in the front with 18 lbs when in the sun, if it's there, but not heated up. Rears are 22.5x5.5x15 in the rear with 20 lbs. When I come in off a session I'm usually running at 20.5-21 lbs in front and 22.5-23 lbs in rear. There are "small rears" or "large fronts" that are 21.5x5.0x15. There are two compounds sold by Hoosier, R55 and R45. The 55s are harder and used in higher temperatures and the 45s are softer and used in lower temperatures, but there are some guys who use the R45s in all temperatures and vice versa. We do have rain tires that are all 22.5x5.0x15.

Typical front camber is 1.0-2.0 degrees and typical rear is 5.0-6.0 degrees.

Although toein varies, I think a typical FV is at 1/8-inch in the front (with driver and at ride height) and 0 or 1/32 or 1/16-inch in the rear.

Typical national level hp is 60+ hp at 6500 rpm and the curve is fairly flat from about 4500-6500. There are, no doubt, guys who can give you the torque curve for their motor. It is OK to occasionally rev these motors to 7000 rpm, but redline is generally considered 6500 rpm.

I know that the roll center axis of a FV is from a point in the middle of the transaxle to a point on the ground centered below the front beam.

Zero roll spring rates in the rear are all over the place. My car has a 130 lb rear spring (calculated using the formula you can get online) and the car works great, but I believe there are guys out there with over 200 lb springs in the rear. The front spring is a VW torsion spring that is pinned in the center and with some of the leaves taken out for use in a FV--I have no idea what the spring rate is on the torsion spring. Many cars, mine included, now have adjustable front beams for setting the ride height where it was once common to twist the leaves past failure in order to get the ride height you wanted. There are also different size steel anti-sway bars inside the other front axle tube (the one that doesn't have the torsion spring) that are 1/2-inch to 3/4-inch in diameter.

Many cars now have a cockpit adjustable shock inside the zero-roll rear spring and adjustable front shocks. I have my shocks set up by pros so I don't know what the compression and rebound rates are but I know that my front pressurized Penskes are set at 100 psi.

You have the typical front/rear weight ratio about right, i.e., about 625-650 rear and 400-375 front for 1025 total weight with driver.

There was a discussion on this site in the last few years about COGs and front/rear roll centers, but I don't recall whether they actually stated real numbers or it was all theoretical.

For ride height you need to define what you're measuring to and I suppose it's from the ground to the bellypan, with driver in the car? For my car that's about 11 cms at the nose, but I know there are cars that are lower.

I hope some other good people will correct all my errors above (if really necessary) and set us both straight.

Thanks again for your effort, I for one, and my son, for two, really appreciate it. I hope eventually someone will make some other body styles so the grid will be a little more varied.

Leroy Coppedge, The Dalles, Oregon
Last edited by VDF1 on May 6th, 2008, 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
VDF1
Posts: 127
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 2:18 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

The front camber number is for each side and the rear camber number is the total or 2.75-3.00 degrees per side in the rear, but since it's zero roll we only talk about the total.
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FV80
Site Admin
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by FV80 »

To answer a couple of your questions...
A well set up Vee with good tires can achieve around 1.6G side load - with spikes higher, but that's about it for average. And NO - a vee will NOT flip over in a spin ... UNLESS it digs into something .. like DIRT. :-)

Also - AFAIK, there is NO minimum ride height. The only spec is that there can be no more than 1 inch deviation in the "bottom" of the car from side to side and front to rear. That is presumed to mean 'belly pan'. It's purpose is to prevent ground effects.
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
hojo
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by hojo »

anywhere this can be dowlloaded as it is right now?
VDF1
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

The FV mod can be downloaded here: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... B52E4A06BE

rFactor can be downloaded here: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/register.cfm

Very helpful hints can be downloaded here: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/rfactor-q ... /index.cfm

A forum for this stuff is here: http://forum.rscnet.org/forumdisplay.php?f=799

Hope this helps.
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hojo
Posts: 64
Joined: December 20th, 2007, 3:56 pm

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by hojo »

it does thanks, i have the game already looking for the mod, i couldnt find a link anywhere

muchos gracias senor
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
VDF1
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

OK, it turns out the rFactor game is downloadable from: http://www.rfactor.net
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Frank
Posts: 179
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by Frank »

I have finals this week so i'm not downloading till wednesday. how does it drive?
VDF1
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

If you mean how well does it mimic a FV I will say that when I set the car up (in the game) the way I mention in the above post and drive it on west coast tracks that I've been on in real life it feels remarkably like my FV. I mean the rhythm of driving is very life like and I run times comparable to what I run in real life. I've since driven it on Mid-Ohio (I was at the runoffs in 2003 but didn't get much time on the track) and I can't get close to what the top drivers ran at that time which was in the 1:39s. I think that may be because the motor sim needs improving to better mimic the hp and torque curves of a real FV that will rev to 7,000 rpm when necessary because of track layout or elevation changes or whatever. I did find that the Infineon track (former Sears Point) is not as well done as the above mentioned west coast tracks because the elevation changes and distances between turns are not quite right and as a result it doesn't feel or look like real life.

I have got the car to "lift-off" the track surface from bumping other cars and hitting curbs and that's not realistic. That's probably why the simulator wants more info on COG, ride height, springs, etc. A FV doesn't usually "lift-off" the pavement when bumped or jostled like the much faster cars and, as Steve and I both said above, will usually turn over only when sliding sideways and hitting something abrupt OR by driving tire over tire and launching.

Hope you did well on finals and that this info is helpful to you. Leroy
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
G_Toronto
Posts: 3
Joined: March 6th, 2008, 11:02 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by G_Toronto »

For the next version I'll make some changes.

Per your comments:
1) I'll reduce the size of the fuel tank
2) I'll lower the center-of-gravity to reduce flipping while spinning.
3) I'll redo, and change, the suspension, to reduce car lifting when bumping curbs & cars, etc...
4) I'll rework the engine data to allow higher rpms.
I've attached the current engine parameters I'm using.
Please advise if anyone has, or knows, real dyno data.
Currently peak torque is 96Nm between 3000 and 3500rpm.
Horsepower peak is 59HP at 6000rpm.
And redline is 6500

What should these numbers be ???
VDF1
Posts: 127
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

Come on one of you engine builders give the guy some real data (you can phony it a bit, if you like). Someday this sim may be the only racing you'll be doing. Is the data that is published in the "Getting Started In FV" closer to real life than his curve?
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sweenrace
Posts: 179
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:03 pm

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by sweenrace »

Leroy,

i had a chance to play it briefly and was impressed. What west coast tracks have you found?

Ian
SR Racing
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by SR Racing »

Here is an actual Dyno run (rear wheel HP). Which is probably what you should be using anyway.
[ external image ]

If you want engine flywheel numbers. You can figure about 8-9% more than the chart shows.

Please note that HP and TORQUE will always be equal at 5252 RPM on all engines.

Jim
SR
VDF1
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by VDF1 »

Jim- Thanks. I hope this helps the man.

Ian- If you go to this site and click on tracks you can look at tracks various people have developed. Use the boxes at the top to narrow your search, e.g., "permanent tracks" and "north america". You have more time than me on the new Laguna Seca and could provide good input on the "feel" of the track (I think it's very close): http://www.rfactorcentral.com/rfactor-q ... /index.cfm

Also it would be great to get your feedback on Mid-Ohio since you managed a top 15 there--my not being able to run what the "hotshots" ran in 2003 may very well just be me. If you try the Infineon I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's not quite right in elevation and distance between turns. It may be a fun track anyway, but it needs improvement to simulate real life. L

PS: For you guys that haven't tried any sims take a look at this: http://iracing.com:80/
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Rich_G
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by Rich_G »

I downloaded this FV mod for rFactor a couple of weeks ago and have been having fun with it.

The link for the mod has expired and I can't find any other info on it - does anyone know if it has been further developed/updated?

The mod comes with 3 flavors of FV - Canadian, SCCA and South African. I'm trying to create a solo-vee and run it on Kart tracks to see if I can get it close. The SCCA version feels pretty good but its slow. I swapped out the SCCA 'engine' for the South African (about 100hp with a 2k higher tq peak). That one seems more powerful than it should though I've been having motor issues with my car for so long I may not be a good judge of it :cry:

Does anyone have real torque curve data on a solo-vee engine? I'll take your data from the 1915, 1600 2x carb and 1600 single carb then you can decide which you like.... :lol:

Thanks,
Rich
FM92
South Carolina Region
RacerGeek
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by RacerGeek »

Rich_G wrote:I swapped out the SCCA 'engine' for the South African (about 100hp with a 2k higher tq peak). That one seems more powerful than it should though I've been having motor issues with my car for so long I may not be a good judge of it :cry:
South African Formula Vees use a 1400cc, dual carb, watercooled engine. Might that explain why it "seems more powerful"? :shock:

[ external image ]
Bob VanDyke
DanRemmers
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by DanRemmers »

Rich_G wrote:Does anyone have real torque curve data on a solo-vee engine? I'll take your data from the 1915, 1600 2x carb and 1600 single carb then you can decide which you like.... :lol:
SR rebuilt my solo vee engine a couple years ago, but they didn't save the dyno run. The peak HP was 85, and torque was 95. Jim said the torque curve was nice and flat. That was at the flywheel, with 1600cc, single Dellorto carb (old rules), and the heads were not ported to the full extent of the rules.
Rich_G
Posts: 41
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:16 am

Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by Rich_G »

Thanks, thats a start!

A curve would be ideal - you basically re-create the curve in modeling software that converts it to the datapoints of the entire curve. It uses crank HP and Tq, there are other factors for parasitic losses from things like transmission, turbo impeller inertia etc. There are values for internal engine inertia and lots of other things but I have no idea what to do with that and I don't know if the person who started it did either...I'll probably just use values from another 4 cyl engine for now.

Thanks again,
Rich
FM92
South Carolina Region
fvkartguy
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Re: FV Racing Sim Development

Post by fvkartguy »

I just bought rfactor, but the link to download the vee isn't working anymore. On rfactorcentral.com, it's only an upcoming car and doesn't have a link to download.
Is there another place I could find it or can someone email it to me?
HendricksRacing Site:
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